FEDlandia FPSR

[DG]

Originally Posted by PWL

I've been told B. Go figure..........

Who told you? R1 did not slide directly to the bag, or slide away from the fielder.

[UmpJM]

DG,

Please expound.

I'm new to umpiring and I'll be doing my 1st "real" NFHS games this year (probably just Frosh & JV).

The last five years I've coached summer youth (13-14 yr. olds) travel leagues, some of which alledgedly played under FED rules. In five years, I've seen an FPSR called exactly once and have had one coaching colleague ask me about an FPSR call that occurred in one of his games. First time he's ever seen it called, & he's been doing it longer than I have.

SO, I went & read the FED rule & the case plays, and I'm not sure how I would call this in a game.

I would be inclined to select jkumpire's "B", though I would add "...and executed a legal slide." to the end of the first sentence of "B". In combination with the rule 2 definition of a legal slide, I think that is what the text of the FPSR rule says. It also strikes me as the "right" call from an intent perspective - not to mention it "feels" right, to me.

So, if you think he should be out, please explain. I find the rule ambiguously worded and don't have exceptional confidence in my interpretation. So, if you've got a different train of thought, let's hear it.

JM

[justanotherblue]

The best way to approach it is to use common sense. If you lack in that department, then Sorry, can't help much. The intent of the rule is to protect the student athlete. Just as in NCAA, remember that phrase, you can't go wrong. If your a rule book ump, your heading for a lot of arguments in your career. If you can apply the rule with the "spirit and intent" in mind, than you most likely don't. R1 didn't alter anything, simply sliding with his lead foot to the outside of the bag shouldn't trigger anything. Where is his body? If it's over the bag, nothing. Sliding with his body outside the bag should and will, NCAA as well as FED. Protect the fielder. Also, remember in FED, R1 can't slide through the bag and make contact with F6 behind the bag. If F6 is in front of the bag, again, you have nothing. In NCAA R1 can now slide through the bag. Seems some coaches were teaching their kids to stay behind the bag for the interference...NO Needless to say, when they moved up, they couldn't turn a pivot. Duh. Hope that helps

[DG]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

DG,

Please expound.

I'm new to umpiring and I'll be doing my 1st "real" NFHS games this year (probably just Frosh & JV).

The last five years I've coached summer youth (13-14 yr. olds) travel leagues, some of which alledgedly played under FED rules. In five years, I've seen an FPSR called exactly once and have had one coaching colleague ask me about an FPSR call that occurred in one of his games. First time he's ever seen it called, & he's been doing it longer than I have.

SO, I went & read the FED rule & the case plays, and I'm not sure how I would call this in a game.

I would be inclined to select jkumpire's "B", though I would add "...and executed a legal slide." to the end of the first sentence of "B". In combination with the rule 2 definition of a legal slide, I think that is what the text of the FPSR rule says. It also strikes me as the "right" call from an intent perspective - not to mention it "feels" right, to me.

So, if you think he should be out, please explain. I find the rule ambiguously worded and don't have exceptional confidence in my interpretation. So, if you've got a different train of thought, let's hear it.

JM

As the post's that follow confirm it is a confusing subject with many interpretations.

From the 2007 FED Casebook 2.32.2 Situation B: "R1 is on third base and R2 is on first base with no outs. A ground bal is hit to F6, who throws to F4 at second base. R2 slides out of the base path in an attempt to prevent F4 from turning the double play. RULING: Since R2 did not slide directly into second base, R2 is declared out, as well as the batter-runner. R1 returns to third base, the base occupied at the time of the pitch. "

This ruling did not say anything about whether the runner actually altered the play or not.

On 3/20/00 McNeely said this: "The best answer I can provide is if a baserunner commits an illegal slide, and during that illegal slide makes contact with a fielder or alters the immediate play, call the interfererence. If the illegal slide did not alter the play or no contact was made, there is no call."

On 4/20/01 Fethchiet (NCAA) said this: "The runner is guilty of interference when he slides to the side of the base occupied by the pivot man, even if he does not make contact or alter the play."

The last two quotes are out of the 2006 BRD.

I don't see anything in the 2007 NCAA rulebooks that contradicts this quote. In fact it says "whether the defense could have completed the double play has no bearing on the applicability of this rule." Actions that are illegal include "the runner slides or runs out of the base line in the direction of the fielder"

So pick the casebook or someone's quote you like and make the call. I prefer the most recent casebook, especially if it has an exact example. The intent of the FPSR is to protect players from injury so punish the ones who are making an illegal effort to go after another player whether they make contact or not. Allowing an offense to go unpunished will promote such behavior not stop it, so not calling it is contrary to the intent.

[jkumpire]

Well,

This has been an interesting discussion! I brought the subject up because I am a local FED rules interpreter, and I still find myself in a quandry about the rule.

Why? Because this discussion has missed one point about the rule. The rule as writen was put in as a safety rule. If it is a safety rule, then we have an obligation to enforce it whether or not there is contact/altering the play.

That is why I have a hard time telling someone not to call the FPSR as written unless there is alteration/contact. What if we let a FPSR call go, then a week later the same kid has a FPSR called on him, after he trashes some kid's knee? I have a former D1 player in my umpire's class this year whose career ended because someone trashed his ACL on a FPSR violation (in an NCAA game).

I would like to see FED do a total rewrite of the rule, and maybe we on the web site can offer language to them to help clarify the problem.

Other comments?

[David B]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Well,

This has been an interesting discussion! I brought the subject up because I am a local FED rules interpreter, and I still find myself in a quandry about the rule.

Why? Because this discussion has missed one point about the rule. The rule as writen was put in as a safety rule. If it is a safety rule, then we have an obligation to enforce it whether or not there is contact/altering the play.

That is why I have a hard time telling someone not to call the FPSR as written unless there is alteration/contact. What if we let a FPSR call go, then a week later the same kid has a FPSR called on him, after he trashes some kid's knee? I have a former D1 player in my umpire's class this year whose career ended because someone trashed his ACL on a FPSR violation (in an NCAA game).

I would like to see FED do a total rewrite of the rule, and maybe we on the web site can offer language to them to help clarify the problem.

Other comments?

I think it probably is intended as a safety rule, but IMO the problem is OBR.

We watch it on TV and what happens ... the trickle down effect is hard to beat.

FED and NCAA have tried but its tough because some umpires were calling everything a FPSR.

IMO that's why they finally added the parts about making contact or altering the play.

Maybe its just in our area, but we get very few calls during the season on the FPSR - I guess for once the coaches have learned and actually taught their kids to do it right??

Thanks
David

[LMan]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

If it is a safety rule, then we have an obligation to enforce it whether or not there is contact/altering the play.

If there's no contact/alteration (as in R1 going to an uncovered 2B), how was safety compromised?

[DG]

Originally Posted by LMan

If there's no contact/alteration (as in R1 going to an uncovered 2B), how was safety compromised?

By allowing we train the players and coaches to think it is ok, so sooner or later safety is compromised, maybe not on the one play but in the future.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by DG

I don't see anything in the 2007 NCAA rulebooks that contradicts this quote.

NCAA 8-4b(1) has changed this year. (It was 8-4c(1) last year): Actions by a runenr are illegal and interference shall be called if: (1) The runner slides or runs out of the baseline in the direction of the fielder and alters the play of a fielder (with or without contact).

The bold part was added.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by DG

Who told you? R1 did not slide directly to the bag, or slide away from the fielder.

There's also a rule about a 45 foot running lane to first. If the runner is outside this lane but does not alter the throw or in no way impedes a fielder or the play do you invoke the penalty?
I don't.
What if a runner slides in to 2nd spikes up or does a pop up slide and no one is covering the bag. Do you peg him for unsportsmanlike conduct?

No contact, no altering of play, no harm.....no foul