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Old Fri Mar 02, 2007, 05:02pm
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Subject line has nothing to do with this post.

Preamble: Everyone knows that upon a call of BALK followed by infield batted ball, when the play is made cleanly SS to 1b, upon catch of ball by F3 who "gets" B-R.. we call TIME! and not "Out!". Then
"That's a balk, You, over there, You back to bat, etc"

NEW SITUATION

2-2 count, 2 outs. R2 and R3. Call of BALK! Pitcher delivers in the dirt. Batter swings and misses as ball skips by catcher, carroms off backstop.

R3 comes home. Very fast R2 rounds 3rd aggressively. Batter-Runner was very slow realizing situation and he FINALLY starts to run to 1st. Catcher recovers ball and now THROWS to 1st to GET Batter-Runner.

Base Ump now makes a call. OF COURSE.. since B-R does not make 1st the BALK is going to be enforced and B-R will return to bat with old 2-2 count.

But what is the call? He can't say TIME.. because who knows where R2 is... R2 may be steps from home, or F3 may have a play on him.

I want to call OUT! on this play and let whatever (if any) continuous action finish, then call time, then enforce the balk. But again, I'm not married to it.
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Old Fri Mar 02, 2007, 05:17pm
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Now, you can call "out" if you want, but the call of 'balk' was made. BR never made it to first, so you enforce the balk. However, being this was the third out, there is a potential for all heck breaking loose.

My thought is to NOT call the out, and enforce the balk, minus all the confusion that calling a third out might cause.
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Old Fri Mar 02, 2007, 05:53pm
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mikebran,

The call in your second sitch is exactly the same as in your 1st sitch. As soon as the conditions for disregarding the balk cease to exist, you call "TIME!" and enforce the balk.

Calling OUT! in your second sitch would be incorrect because the batter is NOT out. Whether the R2 is 2" or 80' from home has absolutely no bearing on the call or the ruling. Since the conditions for disregarding the balk were not met, R2 is going to 3B. F3 cannot make a play on him because the ball became dead as soon as the batter failed to safely reach 1B.

Now a more interesting scenario would be if, in your 2nd situation, the F2 chose to play on the advancing R2 (rather than the BR) - and was successful in putting him out. While the BR was just halfway to 1B let's say. What would you do then?

JM
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Old Fri Mar 02, 2007, 06:48pm
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In your senario, I have R2 out, BR- techncally speaking awarded first base. and the end of the inning.
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Old Fri Mar 02, 2007, 09:39pm
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3apps, please explain your ruling...
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 03, 2007, 08:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPatrino
3apps, please explain your ruling...
It's the same as "R2, R3, two outs, coach (for some reason) callas for the squeeze play. BR bunts the ball, R3 scores, R2 continues around third and is put out before BR reaches first."

Since B1 became BR his time at bat is over, and B2 leads off the next inning.
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Old Sat Mar 03, 2007, 03:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
It's the same as "R2, R3, two outs, coach (for some reason) callas for the squeeze play. BR bunts the ball, R3 scores, R2 continues around third and is put out before BR reaches first."

Since B1 became BR his time at bat is over, and B2 leads off the next inning.
Bob,

Except in the situation being discussed, the F1 balked while delivering the pitch, and the BR did NOT reach 1B safely (or otherwise). Since the conditions for disregarding the balk were not met, why wouldn't you disregard the results of the playing action and enforce the balk?

JM
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Old Sat Mar 03, 2007, 07:08pm
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJM
Bob,

Except in the situation being discussed, the F1 balked while delivering the pitch, and the BR did NOT reach 1B safely (or otherwise). Since the conditions for disregarding the balk were not met, why wouldn't you disregard the results of the playing action and enforce the balk?

JM
In the case presented we had a balk followed by a play.

Playing action was not over (ie runners advancing) so you do not call TIME.

The umpire will say "that's a balk" and allow play to proceed.

In reality 99 times out of 100 when the umpire Yells "that's a balk" , play stops anyhow and you simply enforce but let's stick with the thread.

It's the same as any other delayed situation meaning you do not call TIME until playing action is over.

When is playing action over?

Answer: When runners are stationary and the ball is at or near the pitchers mound.

In the situation described, you call TIME after R2 is played on.

When playing action is over you now call TIME and enforce the balk. R3 advanced, R2 advanced (one base) but he decided on his own to go further.

Conclusion:

R3's run counts R2 is the third out. R2 does not get carte blanche simply because a balk was called.

FED is a different story. In FED as soon as F1 commits a balk the call is TIME that's a balk and we simply enforce.


Pete Booth
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Old Sat Mar 03, 2007, 09:04pm
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Pete,

I'm not sure which of the 3 situations descibed in this thread you are specifically referring to.

I understand the point that (under OBR) when a balk is followed immediately by a pitch or throw the umpire does not call time until play relaxes or some runner did not reach his advance base. I also understand that a runner who attempts to advance beyond his advance base in this situation does so at risk of being put out.

What I am trying to get a clarification on is the specific situation I posed where, following a balk on a 3rd strike not caught pitch, the R2 was put out (for the 3rd out of the half inning) at home on a play at the plate prior to the BR reaching 1B.

By the "letter" of the rule, the balk should be enforced because the BR did not reach 1B safely; therefore, the conditions for disregarding the balk were not met.

3appleshigh suggests that the BR "...techncally speaking awarded first base...", which I personally find insupportable.

Bob Jenkins then followed with the suggestion that the batter had become a runner and completed his time at bat.

Now, if the balk were to be disregarded, that would make perfect sense to me.

However, if the balk is NOT disregarded, the pitch is nullified and the batter would be returned to the plate with the same count he had prior to the balk.

Now I can't find any authoritative source that addresses this specific situation. Absent anything to the contrary, I would be inclined to enforce the balk because the BR did not reach 1B safely.

JM
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Old Sat Mar 03, 2007, 09:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJM
Pete,

I'm not sure which of the 3 situations descibed in this thread you are specifically referring to.

I understand the point that (under OBR) when a balk is followed immediately by a pitch or throw the umpire does not call time until play relaxes or some runner did not reach his advance base. I also understand that a runner who attempts to advance beyond his advance base in this situation does so at risk of being put out.

What I am trying to get a clarification on is the specific situation I posed where, following a balk on a 3rd strike not caught pitch, the R2 was put out (for the 3rd out of the half inning) at home on a play at the plate prior to the BR reaching 1B.

By the "letter" of the rule, the balk should be enforced because the BR did not reach 1B safely; therefore, the conditions for disregarding the balk were not met.

3appleshigh suggests that the BR "...techncally speaking awarded first base...", which I personally find insupportable.

Bob Jenkins then followed with the suggestion that the batter had become a runner and completed his time at bat.

Now, if the balk were to be disregarded, that would make perfect sense to me.

However, if the balk is NOT disregarded, the pitch is nullified and the batter would be returned to the plate with the same count he had prior to the balk.

Now I can't find any authoritative source that addresses this specific situation. Absent anything to the contrary, I would be inclined to enforce the balk because the BR did not reach 1B safely.

JM
The batter "acquired" first base in the same way he would with a Fielder's Choice that ends the inning. (maybe it is even scored like that in the book....for that answer, we may have to ask the rule 10 expert--Tee)
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Old Sat Mar 03, 2007, 09:45pm
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BigTex,

Again, interesting theory, but it doesn't really jibe with

Quote:
7.01
A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.
very well, does it?

Now I certainly don't have anything definitive that says the balk should be enforced in this situation - but that seems the ruling most in accord with what the rules say, at least to me.

And I certainly haven't seen anything definitive, or convincing, that says the balk should be disregarded.

JM
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Old Sun Mar 04, 2007, 12:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
R2 made the third out of the inning after going past his advance/award base before B/R reached 1B.
BTW-It still wouldn't have mattered if the B/R acquired 1B. Same result, balk nullified.
Maybe I'm blind, but I don't read the OS as saying R2 was put out ; I read
that F2 made a play on BR, and it was left up in the air as to R2's position
after he "rounds 3rd aggressively".
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Old Sun Mar 04, 2007, 01:05pm
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In the originally presented sitch, R2 was not put out. However, using 'revision of history' the situation has morphed into the R2 being put out.

I agree with the ruling on the 'revised' scenario, and disagree in the original.
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