Too close for call

[Mattinglyfan]

I just have a question on a unsual play, that WAS called correctly. A low hard liner was hit to 2b. The ball took very short hop, and was fielded by 2B(the ball was not caught. R2 thought that the ball was caught and slide back to second. R1 was on his way to second. I could see the ball was caught, but R2 could not. Umpire was in correct postion to make the call. Raising his fist called the runner out. Only I couldn't tell who he was calling out. I had thought he called R2 out from the tag. I didn't see that 2b had stepped on the bag. The R! was actually called out on the force. R2 thought he had been called out too. walked off the bag and was tagged out. Double play.

Are umpires taught to distiguish who he is calling out in a situation like this, or are we supposed to know?


My lesson to R2 was; (when in doubt , STAY ON THE BAG!)

[Mattinglyfan]

I mean, I could see the ball was not caught.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Mattinglyfan
Are umpires taught to distiguish who he is calling out in a situation like this, or are we supposed to know?

Both.

Plus, the umpire should have given a safe signal and a verbal "no catch" on the initial fielding of the ball.

[jicecone]

I have read your thread 3 times now and Im still trying to figure out if the ball was caught or not. It sounds like you were the runner at first R1.

If R1 was actually called out on a force then it seems like the ball was trapped and not caught as a hard liner!!!?

Reguardless, most times, it is obvious who, is being called out. Even if there is an appeal when multiple runners have pasted a base.

It sounds like you were just as confused as R2.

[Mattinglyfan]

It was confusing trying to write it, I can't imagine trying to decifer it.
The ball was very close to being caught.(IT WASN"T) It actually could have been mistaken for either. The ball actually hit the ground with the glove around it(if you can picture what I mean). It was hit very hard and low. The runner at second thought the ball was caught and slide back to second. The confusion came when the SS applied the tag. From my angle at third, with the runner between the SS and myself, I couldn't see that he was actually touching the bag, as he applied the tag. The umpire made a brilliant call. The out was the force from the SS touching the bag. Both the Runner from Second thought the umpire had called him out. He walked off the bag and was tagged out. IT was our bad, I was just curious.

[jicecone]

ok , I understand now.

Bob is right. I once got frozen in the infield on a trap and by the time I woke up, I was just calling an out too. I can understand how it may have happened.

Mabey the official was having a similar brain freeze.

[chris s]

Originally posted by jicecone
ok , I understand now.

Bob is right. I once got frozen in the infield on a trap and by the time I woke up, I was just calling an out too. I can understand how it may have happened.

Mabey the official was having a similar brain freeze.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~`
I have found it easy to just yell "TRAP" on those plays. In my mind when one of these happens I'm uaually thinking, "catch/trap/catch/trap" and Announce accordingly. With quick fielding it is sometimes tough to get the safe signal up and pivot for a wacker at another bag...JMHO

[Bfair]

Season before last there was a play in a Mets/Marlinx(?) game where Todd Zeille was attempting to return to 3B while his teammate had already advanced to 3B. In returning, the tag attempt was applied to Zeille and then immediately to the following runner who was already standing on 3B. While the umpire declared out the following runner, Zeille felt he had been called out for not reaching the base in time, left the base, and entered the dugout.

Tony Perez, the coach of the Marlins then questioned the umpire as to WHO was declared out on the tag, and in learning that it was the following runner, he requested that Zeille be declared out for abandonment. The crew conferenced and decided to do just that---resulting in 2 outs on the play.

Mets manager, Bobby Valentine, then complained that 2 outs had not been "earned" on the play, and he asked the crew to do what was right. He then left them for their decision.

The crew then conferenced a 2nd time and apparently agreed with Valentine as their final decision was to return Zeille to 3B allowing only one out gained on the play. According to the press, the confusion was caused by the poor mechanics of the umpire in not allowing the players to know which player was declared out on the tags. Certainly the final decision supported that summary of the play---with an effective ruling that the poor mechanics by an official should not be cause to allow an unearned out. Like it or not, that's what occurred.

In your play, the umpire should have been highly demonstrative of his decision of whether the line drive was caught or not. That allows the players to then adjust their running responsibilities based on the call. Whether the ball was actually caught or not is irrelevant---it's the umpire's judgment of whether that ball was caught that really counts---and in such close plays he must be highly demonstrative of his catch/no catch decision.

Now, I'm not saying it's correct per the rules in protecting R2 from his leaving the base thinking he was out...........
I'm only pointing out that there is MLB precedent that an umpire's poor mechanics has been reason NOT to call out such a runner who left the base when such action, indeed, was a result of an umpire's poor mechanics during the play.


Freix

[DaFut]

Saw a very similar play a few weeks ago. R1 and R2, one out. Pitcher catches R2 off the bag; rundown ensues for about 10 throws with R2 making a safe, head first slide back to 2B. Meanwhile, R1 advances to 2B.

Now we have both R2 and R1 on 2B. SS tags both runners. BU rightly calls R2 safe(base still belongs to R2) as he points points to R2 then calls R1 out as both verbally and by pointing. R2, who was face down, thought he was called out, gets up to walk away, gets tagged. Double play.

Two innings later, the same thing almost happened again--except that the leaning runner, R2, was tagged out in the rundown.

[bluezebra]

Originally posted by jicecone
I have read your thread 3 times now and Im still trying to figure out if the ball was caught or not. It sounds like you were the runner at first R1.

If R1 was actually called out on a force then it seems like the ball was trapped and not caught as a hard liner!!!?

Reguardless, most times, it is obvious who, is being called out. Even if there is an appeal when multiple runners have pasted a base.

It sounds like you were just as confused as R2.

Regardless, how do you "have pasted a base"?

Bob

[DownTownTonyBrown]

That might be when the runner tries to slide head first and drags his face across the entire base... and if it is firstbase then there is bound to be a lot of chalk pasted to his face also.

Yep. Face pasted to base.... with chalk frosting.

Pasted a base to his face.

It's got kind of a rythm to it. Pasted a base to his face.

[jicecone]

Hey DownTownTonyBrown knew exactly what I was talking about.

Why couldn't understand?

Thanks guy.