Throw pulls 1st baseman off bag

[505 ump]

What is the procedure when: you're pu and on a infield hit, on the throw to first, the first baseman is pulled off the bag and the bu calls him out? You saw it and the off. coach in the coaches box saw it. How do you make right and not make bu look bad.

[Durham]

Our job is to get up to the 45 so that we see things like this and can help when asked. If the offense is smart enough to come out and convince the BU to ask for help, then you can share it. It is important not to convey info to the 1st base coach with your body language.

[sargee7]

You don't do anything unless asked by your partner. It's his call and if he needs help he'll ask

[Rich]

Originally Posted by 505 ump

What is the procedure when: you're pu and on a infield hit, on the throw to first, the first baseman is pulled off the bag and the bu calls him out? You saw it and the off. coach in the coaches box saw it. How do you make right and not make bu look bad.

You turn around and head back to the plate unless the BU wants your help.

The BU should be getting in position and making this call himself.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by 505 ump

What is the procedure when: you're pu and on a infield hit, on the throw to first, the first baseman is pulled off the bag and the bu calls him out? You saw it and the off. coach in the coaches box saw it. How do you make right and not make bu look bad.

Dispite what is written here by some umpires on the board who are always in perfect postion to see every play and never miss a call it does happen to some of us.

In some situations a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.

If I'm working bases I'll ask my PU, in our pre-game, to alert me if he sees a pulled foot. He doesn't need to wait for me to come to him. Since the objective is to always get the call right I will go for help if I'm not 100% sure. Maybe I'm 99% sure but I'll still go for help if asked.

Some partners workout signals to one another when they have additional information. Be careful with signals because coaches look for things like that and it can be embarrassing when the coach yells, "Go for help, your partner is signaling you" (never happened to me of course).

[Rcichon]

Originally Posted by 505 ump

What is the procedure when: you're pu and on a infield hit, on the throw to first, the first baseman is pulled off the bag and the bu calls him out? You saw it and the off. coach in the coaches box saw it. How do you make right and not make bu look bad.

Fist covering heart signals "I have a call if you need it".
If he points to me, I'll come over to him and tell him what I saw.
If he ignores it, play on.
His call start to finish.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Justme

Dispite what is written here by some umpires on the board who are always in perfect postion to see every play and never miss a call it does happen to some of us.

In some situations a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.

If I'm working bases I'll ask my PU, in our pre-game, to alert me if he sees a pulled foot. He doesn't need to wait for me to come to him. Since the objective is to always get the call right I will go for help if I'm not 100% sure. Maybe I'm 99% sure but I'll still go for help if asked.

Some partners workout signals to one another when they have additional information. Be careful with signals because coaches look for things like that and it can be embarrassing when the coach yells, "Go for help, your partner is signaling you" (never happened to me of course).

Great point...it is our job as a "crew" to get the calls right, this is not a judgement call he either pulled his foot or he didn't. If this happen in basketball or football and we got together and offered information they would say that is great crew communication, why is it different is baseball? Are umpires just bull headed?

[Justme]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Are umpires just bull headed?

Yep, some of the 'old timers' are.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

why is it different is baseball? Are umpires just bull headed?

I don't know if I really care for it to be either way, but I know my wife does, she hates baseball and the way it allows men to act.

The difference between baseball and every other sports is that it is the only sport that allows a coach to come out and potentially argue ever play. You would probably run any coach that did, but by rule he could.

Over time umpires and the game have adapted to meet the acceptable needs of the game. Look at how the strike zone was called 10 years ago vs now. The rule book didn't change regarding the zone, but the desire to call it by rule did.

If we as umpires didn't use certain standards and mechanics, we would create more problems for ourselves than we want. Ex. Umpires start jumping in and correcting our partners without them asking. This creates an illusion that our partners can't handle their job and it cause an increase in the visits to them by coaches. The coach might even use our actions against our partner, and we just lead to an increase in ejections.

If you want to make things better and get things right and increase crew communication in baseball umpiring, then you yourself have to be more willing to seek help, even without being asked.

Ex. I was working a DI game where the score was 3-2 bases loaded and a HR ball was hit right down the right field line. I was U1 and I went down the line. It was this month in one of those cold grey fogged bay area games I was talking about. When I turned I got set early in an attempt to find the ball. I NEVER SAW THE BALL AFTER I TURNED TO GO OUT ON IT. Let me be clear, it wasn't that I saw it and couldn't tell if it was fair/foul. I never picked it up again. I did everything I was suppose to do, mechanics were text book, I just couldn't find it.
I heard it hit foul, I looked at the bullpen of the team on defense, no reaction, I looked at the right fielder no reaction, I listened to the dugout of the offensive team no reaction. I signaled foul, then pointed foul, and jogged back to my position.
The HC started out of the 3rd base dugout to talk to me and before he got to the plate, I held my hand up and asked him to go back to the dugout. I told him I was going to talk with the PU and we would let him know.

At this point, how many umpires would have let the coach come out to argue the call. Then if you end up getting help after the arguement and you change the call, what does that look like to the other guy?

Well the PU told me the ball was about 150 feet above the pole and it was either fair or foul by a nut hair. We decided that it was too close to change. I told the coach and he said thanks for getting help, we just wanted to make sure.

I also brought this situation up when teaching at a recent HS clinic. The guys got the point as to why it is bad to get to close to your play. YOU MIGHT MISS SOMETHING! We were working the point of the plate and I was teaching them to be at the edge of the circle. It was nice to see the recent EOS clip and have it pointed out that the PU was too close on a couple of plays at the plate.

[Tim C]

If an umpire calls "OUT!" that means he has seen the play. You don't call phantom outs.

Umpires have to have "some" ability to umpire. Pretty simple.

If the BU asks before the call OR the call is safe a PU can give help (if asked). If the call is "OUT!" then there is no help to be given.

Make that an 'Old Timer" or "Bullheaded" decision, it is simply correct.

But actually I get my calls.

Regards,

[David B]

Originally Posted by Tim C

If an umpire calls "OUT!" that means he has seen the play. You don't call phantom outs.

Umpires have to have "some" ability to umpire. Pretty simple.

If the BU asks before the call OR the call is safe a PU can give help (if asked). If the call is "OUT!" then there is no help to be given.

Make that an 'Old Timer" or "Bullheaded" decision, it is simply correct.

But actually I get my calls.

Regards,

The BU gets in position to make the call, and if any question - then ask!

Once you call out, then he's out!

I'm as PU headed back to the plate.

Who cares what the coach thinks - he's not an umpire.

Thanks
David

[Durham]

Originally Posted by David B

The BU gets in position to make the call, and if any question - then ask!

Once you call out, then he's out!

I'm as PU headed back to the plate.

Who cares what the coach thinks - he's not an umpire.

Thanks
David

While David's and Tim's advice is good for a majority of the plays at first. It is still acceptable to get help and change a call if you feel you need to even after an out call.

[Rich Ives]

The difference between baseball and every other sports is that it is the only sport that allows a coach to come out and potentially argue ever play.

They argue in other sports just as much. The difference is that the officials are close enough to the coach that "coming out" isn't necessary.

Football has it the worst because there is an official right on the sideline so the coach can get right in his face.

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The difference between baseball and every other sports is that it is the only sport that allows a coach to come out and potentially argue ever play.

They argue in other sports just as much. The difference is that the officials are close enough to the coach that "coming out" isn't necessary.

Football has it the worst because there is an official right on the sideline so the coach can get right in his face.

I agree! I do a lot of indoor soccer! Talk about complaining! It is further a lot harder than baseball because in indoor soccer, outdoor soccer, and basketball, you can have two VERY different styles of play (and since the play is dynamic, you have to allow the styles!). Often, you will have a team that is aggressive, the type of play where they challenge every ball, do a lot of hands on contact like hand checking, minor bumps slightly after a ball is kicked away. Then you have a team that tends to play a bit more cleaner style. When these two teams compete, you can have a tough day on your hands! Are you going to allow the aggressive team play their style as long as they don't start altering play by taking advantage of the contact, or are you going make that aggressive team play a clean game like their opponent? It is a VERY tough decision to make!!! Let the aggressive team play and the clean team complains. Call a clean game and the aggressive team complains.

Yes, I could call these soft fouls all day long, but don't because it would slow the game down and make it ugly. My job is to make sure that these trifling fouls don't put the offended team at a disadvantage in play. Usually, it doesn't, it is just sort of annoying to the offended players. Now, my job is to mediate; to explain to the offended team that I will not let it go any farther than that and keep my word. Usually, this is enough to keep everybody happy.

But complain they do! It has to be handled in soccer/basketball just like it is in baseball. You ignore a little, you give them looks, then you ask them to stop, then you warn, then you eject. Simple enough.

All the time in soccer, team captains approach me for a clarification about a call. They are not per se challenging my judgment, but rather trying to inquire about what the call was and why. Sometimes, they are in a heightened emotional state when they do so. Again, I handle them the same as in baseball. Certainly in soccer, I do not let any person continue to question my judgment calls! That is dissent in soccer. The first offense is a yellow card, the second is an ejection because of the second yellow card. About the same as in baseball!

I give far more verbal warnings in soccer than baseball! The game is different in that more players are involved in situations that offend them, or where they have offended.

Anyway, baseball really isn't that much different than other sports concerning coaches/players arguing/questioning calls, and I think the basics for dealing with these situations is fairly similar between many sports.

Concerning the topic.

Make sure you cover this in your pre-game for sure!

I recently did a game where we didn't, and there was swipe tag on a bad throw at first. At the time, I thought I was 100% that he didn't get a tag and safed him. Of course the defensive coach came out. I didn't go for help (heck yes, I most certainly should have!!! ) and I had no idea if my partner had anything for me because we didn't agree to a signal. Again, I was at the time, 100% sure of my call, but in hindsite, I was only 95% (I didn't see a tag, but I didn't see him not tag either!), and my partner says he got the tag on.

Live and learn I suppose. It was a blow out game and didn't hurt the team, but in a close game, that could have been a game changing mistake on my part. What harm would it have been to ask for help after play was over? None, and it would have made the Head Coach happy. But aside from that, it is just the right thing to do.

On the other end, what can you do? In a close game, in a game changing situation, I think I would say to my partner "Bob, can we talk for a moment" then give him what I got unsolicited. In a blow out, maybe I would stay out of it until he comes to me. It is a tough call. Certainly though, it is your partners call all the way to stay with or change.