Throw pulls 1st baseman off bag

[Rcichon]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Gentlemen,

Being kind of new to this, I thought I'd share an experience .......................

JM

Sounds like you got the call right. If you're BU, you were focusing on the right spot: You have to get the timing of the catch/foot plant at 1. That said, you should EXPECT that your partner will not be watching the same spot. HE should be (and was according to your post) watching for exactly what he saw, a swipe tag or OBS/INT/Foul, etc.

It is possible that you were too close to the play to see the entire motion.

All that FUBAR/boob stuff is blather. You and your partner got the call right. If this guy was sore with you over that, maybe you should choose a different partner next time.

Next.

[LMan]

I think the key is to ask for help (if you are going to do it) before your call....that ensures one call is made. If you are BU in JM's play and you even think there may be extenuating circumstances (I understand that in this particular case you must have been so tunnelvisioned on the foot that you missed the swipe tag entirely), you have to ask the PU before you rule.

That 'gets it right' and leaves no impression that your call was 'changed'.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Justme,

Your logic is faulty when it comes to the way you are interpreting this paragraph.

It is saying force plays when the ball is not dropped or the foot is not pulled are not subject to reversal. It does not mean that unsolicited advice should be given when the ball is dropped or the foot is pulled. It only means that these two types of force plays can be reversed. The umpire who originally had the call must still go to his partner and ask for help.

According to the NCAA rules you posted, there are only 7 situations where unsolicited advice is warranted or even tolerated. Neither a straight dropped ball on a force nor a pulled foot on a force are one of them.

If the umpire did not see the dropped ball because of turning from the play too fast, or was screened from seeing it (he did not see the ball dropped or juggled after a tag or force), then his partner should come to him and correct it. On a straight dropped ball, the umpire must have judged possession, and must seek help on his own.

I believe you're correct, I stand corrected.

BUT, the pulled foot is subject to reversal......

F) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners.
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[UmpJM]

Justme,

BUT, the pulled foot is subject to reversal......

I believe you are correct that the text you quoted does say this, and I stand corrected.

Rcichon,

I didn't mean to suggest that my partner was in any way upset with me or I with him in this situation. He simply let me know that he had something for me if I wanted it - with the way everybody reacted to my call, it became obvious to me that I had missed something. So I did want to know what he saw. He just told me what he saw and left it to me to decide whether or not to reverse the call - as I believe is proper.

This particular individual has been immensely helpful to me in getting started umpiring.

While I agree that the PU in this situation should be watching for a swipe tag, the fact of the matter is that it was my responsibility to make the call, and I screwed the pooch because I didn't do it right. Specifically, I

1. Failed to adjust my eyes to the ball (in the F3's glove) as the action continued to develop after I saw the pulled foot

and

2. Failed to make the minor adjustment in my angle of view to the play to clear the screening effect of F3's body.

I think my "distance" was about right - roughly 15' from the play.

I believe (hope?) that if I were to have the same play occur today, I would do these things correctly and make the right call initially or, if I were unable to "clear the screen", at least know that I did not have sufficient information to make the call and go to my partner for help before making a call - as LMan suggests.

In this case, my problem was that at the instant I made the call, I was 100% confident that I had made the correct call and it didn't even occur to me that I might have missed something. I quickly became disabused of that notion.

Steve,

I think you give coaches way too much credit, and place too much value on their opinions.

Now just a Gol' Darn Minute!! Coaches don't get HALF the respect they deserve!!! And a lot of coaches have some VERY valuable opinions!!!! Why just the other day...

Oh.... Wait a minute.... Never mind. (Sometimes I forget that I've crossed over to the dark side.)

When I was coaching, I would on rare occasions go to talk to an umpire when I felt that he had missed one of these "pulled foot" or "swipe tag" situations. I would generally only do this when it looked pretty obvious to me that he had missed the call. I would ask him if he would mind checking with his partner because I had seen the play differently & his partner might have had a better angle.

Now I really didn't expect him to reverse his call in these situations. Sometimes the umpire would check with his partner, sometimes he wouldn't. (I think in 12 years of coaching, I got exactly one of these types of calls reversed.) I never made a big deal out of it and I didn't start acting like a jerk because of it. I did want the umpire to know that I was watching closely and that I thought he had missed the call. To me, that was part of my job in managing the team.

JM

[Durham]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Coach JM,

I believe the rationale is based on the statement Tim made earlier: no phantom outs. You call someone out because you saw something that made him out.

I will start by saying that I agree with Tim's last statement toward me and do not wish to turn this into a measuring contest. My intent is only to engage in civil discussion.

I understand that we don't want to have "phantom out" calls, but as many here have stated, when the call is your responsibility; then you are charged with making a call. I for one have been on the field when bad baseball has taken place and due to last second acrobatics, my angle was lost and I got the best look that I could. I am not opposed to getting help before making the call, but I think if you use that a lot then it opens you up more than getting help when asked.

Let's say that I was in a great position to see the pulled foot, but it turned into a bad one for the swipe tag, or run downs those are always fun.

You make the best call that you can and you sell the hell out of it. Which ever way might be best to sell the call based on situation and such.

Tim, I can honsetly say that there have been a few times where I would have gotten help on an out call if the coach would have been smart enough to come out and ask me to get help, but as we know they are not always that smart.

My 1st year on Pro ball I had 27 ejections in the Penn League, then in spring before my second year they instructed MiLB umpires as a group that they wanted a kinder gentler umpire. In my 2nd year I had 4 ejections with time in the Sally, FSL, & Southern.

I got out and the NCAA said they wanted kinder gentler umpires too.

If a head coach comes out and asks me to get help and I feel that it was a situation that warranted it I would most certainly ask.

I would bring the entire crew together ask what ever question was appropriate and make a decission. Another thread asked about how do you change a call.

If I were the crew chief I would walk over to the dugout of the team that the change would go against and inform the head coach of the change and tell him that my partners gave me information that I didn't have and I CHANGED MY CALL. I would also not allow him to approach my partners and warn him if need be and eject him if I had too, but I would not allow him to go after my partners.

If I weren't the crew chief I would do everything the same, but I would walk over there with the crew chief.

By walking over to the head coach and informing him in this manner, I feel that you are much more likely to prevent an ejection. You will not always avoid it, but by explaining the situation versus reacting to his charging out on the field there will be less trouble when you change the call.

Tim, I would also not go get help if the coach came out in an unreasonable manner. Only if he was under control and asked in a calm manner.

Thoughts?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by rei

One of the reasons that I am doing high levels of baseball is because I am fair, impartial, and work hard at doing the right thing. Coaches opinions do have value, and coaches deserve credit where credit is due.

Since you do not do any college level baseball and never have, you have no experience with how this plays out on the college baseball field, thus, no reference to base an opinion on.

Those are facts!

I have worked plenty of summer collegiate ball, wood-bat leagues with college players, adult leagues with college and former professional players, and top level Varsity HS games since 1987. I have plenty of reference on which to base my opinions. Let me know when you have nearly the experience I have.

[UmpJM]

rei,

I would just like to offer the following observations.

Though you have only recently begun posting to this forum, the impression I have formed in my mind (based solely on the content of your posts) is that you tend to know what you are talking about, and, from my perspective, are someone who contributes to the value this resource offers.

In my experience on this board, pursuing the line of "discussion" you are following in the post immediately above will contribute "less than zero" to the value of this forum. So I have chosen not to engage in such discussions.

As in all things, do as you think best.

JM

[UmpJM]

QED

That didn't take long.

JM

[mcrowder]

First off, the implication that MiLB is better than NCAA or vice versa is just flat stupid. They are simply different.

Second off... REI - you've just gotten a ringing endorsement from the court jester. Congrats. So far in your short life, you've come across as nothing but condescending to the general populus here.

I'll take you at your word (Tee's backup helps there!) that you actually have the experience you claim to have, but some of the comments you have made give the majority of us reason to doubt your ability to work with anyone. (Re: comments in one thread that you tell "lesser umpires" how to judge a check swing at your pregame conference... comments in another ribbing a so-called-junior umpire for doing HIS job at a time when his job necessarily had to include preventing you from playing hopscotch with a coach that you found particularly cute (verbally cute that is), wasting everyone else's time, etc.)

Take a deep breath and realize that 90% of the posters here are here to learn from our betters and educate the newbies - and that most of us are in the middle of that spectrum. And also remember that an umpire can be good and still work at a "lower" level than you, and that different things are expected at different levels... NCAA is NOT the default setting.

[Thom Coste]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Now just a Gol' Darn Minute!! Coaches don't get HALF the respect they deserve!!! And a lot of coaches have some VERY valuable opinions!!!! Why just the other day...

Oh.... Wait a minute.... Never mind. (Sometimes I forget that I've crossed over to the dark side.)

JM

I believe some of us would say that you've crossed over from the dark side.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Thom Coste

I believe some of us would say that you've crossed over from the dark side.

"Now, *cough* Mr Blue....pull my lineup card and stopwatch from me....I want to see the rulebook with my own eyes...."

"I cant do that, JM, you'll die as a coach"

"Nothing can stop that now......."

"NO..Ive got to save you"

"Mr Blue....you already have....."

Originally Posted by CoachJM

rei,

I would just like to offer the following observations.

Though you have only recently begun posting to this forum, the impression I have formed in my mind (based solely on the content of your posts) is that you tend to know what you are talking about, and, from my perspective, are someone who contributes to the value this resource offers.

In my experience on this board, pursuing the line of "discussion" you are following in the post immediately above will contribute "less than zero" to the value of this forum. So I have chosen not to engage in such discussions.

As in all things, do as you think best.

JM

I will keep that mind. Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And that just might be the most ignorant statement that I've read on this forum yet.Why don't you just come out and say to everybody "I'm a big-time umpire and you're not"? What next? Gonna write your resume at the bottom of every post that you make too?

I see that having smug, know-it-all, overbearing azzholes delivering sermons from the Mount is fairly common in all sports.

I am sorry you feel that way. I am about 100% sure if we met in person, and talked about the same subjects, you would not feel this way, unless you were extremely insecure about where you are at as an umpire.

The brevity required to get an idea across on a BBS such as this means that sometimes you have to assume the best about a person.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I can see that he's already a legend in his own mind too.

Can you please point to some kind of fact that would say that this is how I think?

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Be vewy, vewy careful.

Rei has experience far above D1 and has been umpiring just a little longer than you.

You might try to listen for once.

Regards,

rei has what level experience? You seem to know a lot about him. Where can I see him work?