Throw pulls 1st baseman off bag

Originally Posted by ctblu40

This is the baseball board... Is it possible that the two games that are played under different rules are also officiated with different guidlines? I posted the CCA manual notes in a preceding post.

His post is verbatim of what is in the 2007 NCAA Baseball Umpires Manual.

My bad for suggesting that you might step in and offer unsolicited information on a pulled foot.

But again, if the game is on the line over that call, personally, I will probably go out on a limb and still go unsolicited to the decided umpire and tell him what I saw.

In any case, that is a situation where the deciding umpire should be telling the coach "Hey Skip, I am going to talk with my partner about this call ok? I am going to check to see if he seen what I seen." No harm in that at all.

But indeed, at the NCAA level, and you WILL see this at the NFHS level in their manuals (I am in Oregon, thus, we use CCA mechanics, thus, I am going with the NCAA way of seek help...).

I think it is natural for us umpires to be suspicious of any procedure where we might have to admit we are wrong to a coach! But, in the last couple of years in NCAA ball, I have personally never seen this concept abused by a coach, and opposing coaches have accepted this procedure gracefully, even when the call as been reversed. Yes, they have their "turn" at questioning you, but at the end of the day, everybody is happy that the call is right!

I am personally in favor or the CREW ON THE FIELD getting together on certain calls and getting in right. But if replay ever shows up on the diamond, I will have to give hard thought to whether I want to do this anymore.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Justme:

I have always respected your work (and still do) however there is a huge difference between baseball and softball.

Softball rules and interpretations are not connected, in any way, with baseball.

Regards,

Sorry Tim, but in this case, both manuals are identical!

[UmpJM]

Gentlemen,

Being kind of new to this, I thought I'd share an experience I had while umpiring a High School age Fall Ball game last year.

I was BU in A and the batter hit a "routine grounder" to the left side of the infield. The F5 cleanly fielded it and threw to 1st. I had moved into fair territory at a roughly 45 degree angle to the 1B line. As the throw left F5's hand it quickly became apparent that it was not a "quality" throw. I focused on the base and listened for the catch. Sure enough, the F3's foot came off the bag as he reached for the throw and it was clear to me that he was off the bag before he caught the throw, which was 2-3 steps ahead of the BR.

As the BR crossed the bag, I made an emphatic "SAFE!" call, & followed with a two-hand sweeping motion while verbalizing "Off the bag".

All of a sudden, there's some lamentation from the defense, and my partner, who is roughly 1/2 way up the 1B line discretely signals me that he's got something I may not have seen.

I then called Time and my partner and I had a private conversation with my partner, during which my partner informed me that he had clearly seen the F3 make a "good" swipe tag of the BR before he had reached 1B.

I then announced that the BR was "Out, on the tag!". There was no objection from the offense when I reversed my call, and the game proceeded to completion without further incident, despite some bangers on the bases.

From my perspective, I FUBAR'd that call at 1B. I could make the lame excuse that I was screened from seeing the tag by F3's body (which I was), but that was just because I didn't know enough to make the minor adjustment necessary to get a clear view. Even more mortifying to me, is that I didn't even know that the F3 had attempted a swipe tag, let alone whether or not the tag was good. I had not employed "proper use of the eyes", because once I saw the F3's foot come off the bag, I had neglected to closely observe what he did once he caught the ball.

When I attended the Desert Classic the following month, I was instructed on both of these points and, hopefully, I will avoid making these particualr mistakes in the future. I'm sure there will be others. While attending class, I related this situation to one of the instructors over adult beverages one evening. While he was too polite to call me an incompetent boob, his distaste for the fact that I had reversed my original call was evident.

At the time, I was glad that my partner let me know he had seen something and felt it was "the right thing to do" to reverse my call. Now I'm not so sure. The MiLB umpire/instructor seemed to suggest that, even after receiving the additional info., I should have just "eaten" the call.

I would also appreciate some clarification on the rationale behind Tim C.'s statement that:

If the BU asks before the call OR the call is safe a PU can give help (if asked). If the call is "OUT!" then there is no help to be given.

The part about asking before making a call I get, but I'm not clear on why it might be occasionally OK to reverse a Safe call, but not an Out call.

Not being argumentative, just trying to understand.

Thanks.

JM

Great story JM. Thanks for sharing that.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Gentlemen,

Being kind of new to this, I thought I'd share an experience I had while umpiring a High School age Fall Ball game last year.

I was BU in A and the batter hit a "routine grounder" to the left side of the infield. The F5 cleanly fielded it and threw to 1st. I had moved into fair territory at a roughly 45 degree angle to the 1B line. As the throw left F5's hand it quickly became apparent that it was not a "quality" throw. I focused on the base and listened for the catch. Sure enough, the F3's foot came off the bag as he reached for the throw and it was clear to me that he was off the bag before he caught the throw, which was 2-3 steps ahead of the BR.

As the BR crossed the bag, I made an emphatic "SAFE!" call, & followed with a two-hand sweeping motion while verbalizing "Off the bag".

All of a sudden, there's some lamentation from the defense, and my partner, who is roughly 1/2 way up the 1B line discretely signals me that he's got something I may not have seen.

I then called Time and my partner and I had a private conversation with my partner, during which my partner informed me that he had clearly seen the F3 make a "good" swipe tag of the BR before he had reached 1B.

I then announced that the BR was "Out, on the tag!". There was no objection from the offense when I reversed my call, and the game proceeded to completion without further incident, despite some bangers on the bases.

From my perspective, I FUBAR'd that call at 1B. I could make the lame excuse that I was screened from seeing the tag by F3's body (which I was), but that was just because I didn't know enough to make the minor adjustment necessary to get a clear view. Even more mortifying to me, is that I didn't even know that the F3 had attempted a swipe tag, let alone whether or not the tag was good. I had not employed "proper use of the eyes", because once I saw the F3's foot come off the bag, I had neglected to closely observe what he did once he caught the ball.

When I attended the Desert Classic the following month, I was instructed on both of these points and, hopefully, I will avoid making these particualr mistakes in the future. I'm sure there will be others. While attending class, I related this situation to one of the instructors over adult beverages one evening. While he was too polite to call me an incompetent boob, his distaste for the fact that I had reversed my original call was evident.

At the time, I was glad that my partner let me know he had seen something and felt it was "the right thing to do" to reverse my call. Now I'm not so sure. The MiLB umpire/instructor seemed to suggest that, even after receiving the additional info., I should have just "eaten" the call.

I would also appreciate some clarification on the rationale behind Tim C.'s statement that:



The part about asking before making a call I get, but I'm not clear on why it might be occasionally OK to reverse a Safe call, but not an Out call.

Not being argumentative, just trying to understand.

Thanks.

JM

The mind set of sticking with your call no matter what is coming to an end, even in MiLB & MLB level. If you watch pro-ball then I'm sure you've begun to see the umpires conferencing more. The idea is to get the call right. Of course there are times when you can't change the call because it will cause more problems then it corrects but when you can get the call right I believe that you should. Remember, the good of the game clearly outweights the ego of the umpire (or at least it should).

[Justme]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Justme - even if that book applied to baseball (it doesn't), where in the long diatribe does it suggest that an umpire should butt into his partner's call on a pulled foot if he's not asked?

Actually, when you read the "NCAA baseball" umpire instructions (my 2nd long post) you'll see the pulled foot addressed in (f).

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Justme

Actually, when you read the "NCAA baseball" umpire instructions (my 2nd long post) you'll see the pulled foot addressed in (f).

Justme,

I assume you are referring to (my emphasis):

F) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners.

Yes?

What this passage actually says is that the call in the situations discussed in this thread (i.e. erroneous out call on a pulled foot, erroneous safe call on an "unobserved" but successful swipe tag) should NOT be reversed.

Because they are both judgement calls...

which have traditionally not been subject to reversal...

and

this practice shall continue.

While I would not argue against the position that the good of the game is more important than the umpire's ego, I might be willing to engage in a debate on the question of whether or not the good of the game is best served by reversing a judgement call - even if said judgement call was incorrect.

Two different questions in my mind.

I've observed the trend you mention in MLB. I'm not so sure it's a good thing.

In a related vein, my opinion is that the use of instant replay as an element of officiating in football (both the NFL and NCAA) is detrimental to the good of the game and has resulted in a mild deterioration of the quality of officiating.

JM

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

The part about asking before making a call I get, but I'm not clear on why it might be occasionally OK to reverse a Safe call, but not an Out call.

Coach JM,

I believe the rationale is based on the statement Tim made earlier: no phantom outs. You call someone out because you saw something that made him out.

[UmpJM]

Craig,

Thanks. Your restatement of what Tim said in the first sentence of his post on the subject was the nudge I needed to get the point.

Sometimes I'm dense.

JM

[Justme]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Justme,

What this passage actually says is that the call in the situations discussed in this thread (i.e. erroneous out call on a pulled foot, erroneous safe call on an "unobserved" but successful swipe tag) should NOT be reversed.

Because they are both judgement calls...which have traditionally not been subject to reversal...and this practice shall continue.

Re-read the passage. The pulled foot is an exception as is every example given in ()

F) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners

Originally Posted by CoachJM

While I would not argue against the position that the good of the game is more important than the umpire's ego, I might be willing to engage in a debate on the question of whether or not the good of the game is best served by reversing a judgement call - even if said judgement call was incorrect.

Okay, lets debate

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Two different questions in my mind.

I've observed the trend you mention in MLB. I'm not so sure it's a good thing.

Why isn't it?

[Justme]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Coach JM,

I believe the rationale is based on the statement Tim made earlier: no phantom outs. You call someone out because you saw something that made him out.

Maybe sometimes you might call someone out because you didn't see something that made him safe....it happens!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Justme

Re-read the passage. The pulled foot is an exception as is every example given in ()

F) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners.

Justme,

Your logic is faulty when it comes to the way you are interpreting this paragraph.

It is saying force plays when the ball is not dropped or the foot is not pulled are not subject to reversal. It does not mean that unsolicited advice should be given when the ball is dropped or the foot is pulled. It only means that these two types of force plays can be reversed. The umpire who originally had the call must still go to his partner and ask for help.

According to the NCAA rules you posted, there are only 7 situations where unsolicited advice is warranted or even tolerated. Neither a straight dropped ball on a force nor a pulled foot on a force are one of them.

If the umpire did not see the dropped ball because of turning from the play too fast, or was screened from seeing it (he did not see the ball dropped or juggled after a tag or force), then his partner should come to him and correct it. On a straight dropped ball, the umpire must have judged possession, and must seek help on his own.

I think one thing is for sure, and that is that the whole "getting the call right" concept and procedures are going to become prevelent at all levels of baseball.

How far will it go, and what other scenarios might be added into the "get some help" catagory? That remains to be seen. But, I don't see this going away.

Also, based on my experience with it, I don't see it as a bad thing. Indeed, some coaches may try to get this on every call in the field, but we have ways to deal with appeals that make a mockery of the game, and I imagine those will start to apply to the coach who asks us to go for help on every call! We may deal with that like we would them arguing balls and strikes, or how we deal with constant appeals at every base even when there was no question as to the outcome.

I think once coaches are familiar with when they can ask an umpire to ask for hlep, 99.9% of the time, they will only ask when it is appropriate. It is a concept that everybody will need to get their heads around and used to doing. But after a few years of using it, I think things will settle down and it will be a good addition to calling the game.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by rei

I think once coaches are familiar with when they can ask an umpire to ask for hlep, 99.9% of the time, they will only ask when it is appropriate. It is a concept that everybody will need to get their heads around and used to doing. But after a few years of using it, I think things will settle down and it will be a good addition to calling the game.

I think you give coaches way too much credit, and place too much value on their opinions.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I think you give coaches way too much credit, and place too much value on their opinions.

One of the reasons that I am doing high levels of baseball is because I am fair, impartial, and work hard at doing the right thing. Coaches opinions do have value, and coaches deserve credit where credit is due.

Since you do not do any college level baseball and never have, you have no experience with how this plays out on the college baseball field, thus, no reference to base an opinion on.

Those are facts!