Partners "stepping in" to your discussion...

Originally Posted by Durham

The first one happened after a partner was MFing Pat Casey and ejected him. He kept MFing him and at one point when I was trying to get between them, I told my partner to go to the Fing outfield. I even called Pat's 1st base coach over to grab Pat and get him out of there.

Pretty good bet that neither of them used any Verbal Judo!

[Durham]

Nope it was more like Verbal MFing Kung Fu!

[RPatrino]

You have to protect your partner(s). Sometimes from themselves.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Sure, you need to protect your partner, but if he's doing fine without you, then don't interrupt him. If he is out of control, as in Durham's examples, then you need to step in and regain control of the situation. By the same token, if you have a very inexperienced partner, and he is just getting pummeled by the coach, and he clearly can't handle the situation, then it's a good thing to move in and take his place, and have him take a walk.

Originally Posted by Durham

Nope it was more like Verbal MFing Kung Fu!

I remember a game a couple of years ago where a coach who I know quite well came out on me because I called his stealing runner out at second. He is one of those coaches that never gets thrown out because he never says anything to get himself thrown out. When he yells, it is usually just so everybody knows he is out "protecting his player". Never any disparaging comments, personal insults, questioning your actual judgment, or any crap like that. He just argues stuff like "are you sure you had the right angle to see that?", or "is that really the rule?". It is almost comical. I usually give him a little time to say his peace and I know I will not hear from him for the rest of the game.

Anyway, in said game, he is out there asking all the usuals, and my fairly new partner (about 4 years umpiring) comes out and says "Come on guys, lets go". The coach turns and looks at him, turns towards me with that look of like "Who is this guy?", turns back to my partner and asks "Who the heck are you? I was discussing this with your partner!", turns back to me and says "Thanks for listening", and heads off to his dugout. From this point on, the assistant from that team started taking little sniper shots about balls and strikes from the dugout on my partner, of which, he didn't deal with at all! LOL

I am not sure if he really learned any kind of lesson there because the post game didn't go so well for various other reasons. He didn't get any Varsity assignments after the pre-season.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

You have to protect your partner(s). Sometimes from themselves.

You should if you can but sometimes they just can't be helped. Recent war stories:

Adult League game a season or two ago. My partner, a pretty good varsity HS ump, on the plate. Struggling with the pitches being thrown by the big boys, his zone was all over the place. One of the coaches complained that he never called the same position twice in a row. After my partner exchanged a few words (from the plate) with the coach in the dugout he set to watch the next pitch. Clearly up (way up). "STRIKE, how'd you like that one coach?" He yelled out. He called a couple of other bad pitches strikes too, with comments. Not much you can do there......

Last season, HS varsity playoff game. I'm the 3B ump. My PU kicks a call at home, we all saw it but he wouldn't go for help. Coach was all over him. They spent several minutes yelling at each other. I looked up at the sky, no clouds...no rain. I looked at the lights around the field, no ending this game due to darkness. I remembered that there was no time limit on the game. I looked at one of the asst. coaches and waived him toward where his head coach & my PU were still screaming at each other, the direction I was now walking too. It was like we read each others minds. He grabbed his guy and I got my guy. A few moments later we were back playing ball. Right or wrong I did it.

[Rcichon]

Originally Posted by rei

I remember a game a couple of years ago ....................

Managers that snipe like this get the 'cold shoulder' on the outside but also burn up what little 'jurisdictional license' they have with me.

Not to mention fuse length! To me, small bullsh*t remarks concerning Strikes/Balls that are repeated is Prolonged.

Originally Posted by Rcichon

Managers that snipe like this get the 'cold shoulder' on the outside but also burn up what little 'jurisdictional license' they have with me.

Not to mention fuse length! To me, small bullsh*t remarks concerning Strikes/Balls that are repeated is Prolonged.

I agree! I don't allow it to continue when I am on the plate, ESPECIALLY from an assistant coach! If it is totally out of hand and I am on the bases and my partner doesn't take care of it, I will most likely step in.

But on this day, with this partner, I figured since he wanted to butt into our discussion earlier, he must be willing to take some crap he shouldn't, and I let it go. During the pre-game, when I tried to cover some stuff with him, he kept saying stuff like "I already know that, let's move on", and "I know what I am doing", etc...

Again, he isn't doing any varsity ball, even now. He seemed to have a little problem with constructive criticism from senior partners, and that is holding him back. Well, and maybe his freshman strike zone too!

With a partner who just outright doesn't know what is going on, or who obviously can't handle a tough situation, but at least has a shred of humility, I would never think of hanging them out to dry. But when a guy gives every indication that he isn't interested in what I have to say, I am not going to step in until the situation has the potential of becoming violent between my partner and a coach.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by rei

But on this day, with this partner, I figured since he wanted to butt into our discussion earlier, he must be willing to take some crap he shouldn't, and I let it go. During the pre-game, when I tried to cover some stuff with him, he kept saying stuff like "I already know that, let's move on", and "I know what I am doing", etc...

.

I had a different take on what your P did when you originally posted it. And in fact still do.
Your P in this game was the PU and is charged with moving the game along. He's listening to this coach arguing or talking or discussing or whatever it is he does, about nothing, a bunch of fluff based on how you described it. Your P simply came out and said "lets go" lets play ball. If you and this coach want to dance, do it on your own time. I'd say this young PU had a pretty good read on this coach from the get go and did his job.
BTW, if a coach turns to me in that situation and says "who the heck are you" it would probably be his last question of the day, most certainly the last one outside the dugout.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Rcichon

No. Since I am UIC for my assoc., I advise Junior Umpires that are being observed during games or that are doing games with me of incorrect calls or interp's. Even then, it is away from others no one else can hear or read what's happening and I always advise the Junior that it is HIS call start to finish no matter which way it goes.

I have never been set upon by another more Senior Umpire during a game. If I had, I would probably consider what he's saying at least for reference. If he tried to change my call, I would advise him to back away and I would change the call if the sitch warranted it.

Then i would tell the scheduler to never put me with that AW again.

That being said, I've only been at this Officiating thing for 12 years.

This is kind of funny, actually.

On one hand, "I advise junior partners ... doing games with me of incorrect calls."
On the other, if it turns out you're the junior partner, "I would tell the scheduler never to put me with that AW again."

Ever have any of your "junior partners" quit on you? Wouldn't shock me.

It's one thing to correct a missed interp. It's one thing to tell a junior guy AFTER the game that he may have missed one, and how to be in better position the next time. It's completely another to "inform partners of a wrong call" (Wrong in YOUR opinion... at a time when you probably had other responsibilities or at the very least the OTHER umpire (Jr he may be) had a better angle (and after all, with proper mechanics, the umpire with the better shot at getting the right call is almost always the one making that call). How arrogant to assume that your call (from most likely further away or a worse angle) is more correct than his call. Years be damned, that's quite a leap there, cowboy.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by rei

The coach turns and looks at him, turns towards me with that look of like "Who is this guy?", turns back to my partner and asks "Who the heck are you? I was discussing this with your partner!", turns back to me and says "Thanks for listening", and heads off to his dugout.

You seem to think this was funny. I'd work with your partner anyday. This is the second time you've come on here with a story you thought was funny where it sounds (even from YOUR words) like you were the problem. What are you doing playing pattycake with this guy for? Kudos to the new guy for not letting you waste everyone else's time. And no kudos to you for not tossing the jerk for disparaging your partner to your face. Nice sticking up for the partner there.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by rei

During the pre-game, when I tried to cover some stuff with him, he kept saying stuff like "I already know that, let's move on", and "I know what I am doing", etc...

Based on the pregame advice you were bragging about in the other thread, I don't blame the kid. Good job chasing off a potential umpire.

Originally Posted by mcrowder

You seem to think this was funny. I'd work with your partner anyday. This is the second time you've come on here with a story you thought was funny where it sounds (even from YOUR words) like you were the problem. What are you doing playing pattycake with this guy for? Kudos to the new guy for not letting you waste everyone else's time. And no kudos to you for not tossing the jerk for disparaging your partner to your face. Nice sticking up for the partner there.

Actually, the coach has every right to come out and ask questions about that call. I have no problem with coaches that I know do not step over the line doing a little yelling and screaming provided that they don't repeat questions, and don't question my judgment.

My job isn't to jack a guy just because he is carrying on a bit. I have been around the argument block more than my fair share of times, and have enough years working with coaches in this area to know who some of the good guys and bad guys are. I don't play "pattycake" with anybody. But it is my call to decide when the discussion is over, not my partners! In this particular case, the argument was not very long, and it was constructive, and he had no business cutting in.

As much as it is up to me to decide when a coach is done "discussing" a call with me, it is also up to my partner to decide when he wants to run a guy. You can't have it both ways! Either you can say it is okay for your partner to cut in on something, or it isn't. If my partner heard what was said to him and didn't throw the coach, I sure as heck ain't gonna do it for him!

It is easy to have hard and fast rules about umpiring, but the longer I do this, the more I respect that each situation has it's own unique dynamic to it. I used to be a quick to eject umpire, and it only stressed me out being that way. What has worked far better for me is to work towards keeping people in the game, even if that means it appears I didn't get the "upper hand" in the situation. There are times when letting a coach rant a bit works out very well, and the better you know the coaches you are working with, the better you are at determining when enough is enough. It is just not the same in every situation!

I worked with an ex AAA umpire last year in a game that started to get pretty heated from one side. Lots of little things going on. Comments from the dugout, catcher getting a bit mouthy, hitters making comments. Finally, a guy got thrown. The manager came out, and a HUGE prolonged argument ensued. I was standing 20 or so feet away and could not hear a word being said because the crowd was so loud telling him to eject the manager. He didn't, and not another incident with that team happened in that game! I thought for sure he was going to jack this manager, but he didn't, and the manager got control of his ball club. In another game, I seen him eject an assistant rather quickly, and the manager didn't even come out on it. No problems after that either.

I guess what I am getting at is that in both cases, I would have been inclined to do opposite of what he did, and that may or may not have worked for me. But after his 25 years of professional ball, he had a pretty good handle on when it was appropriate and even desirable to allow a confrontation to go a little long, and when a quick boot would serve the game well! It worked for him, and the players and coaches mostly showed great respect towards this guy!

So, don't be so quick to judge a situation that you didn't attend, especially when the way the person handled it worked out. All this typing out of situations on a bulletin board NEVER comes close to painted the most accurate picture of what really happened, and when it comes to handling situations, there is a lot of room for "You had to have been there" to come into play to fully appreciate how the person handled it!

Peace out bros.

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Based on the pregame advice you were bragging about in the other thread, I don't blame the kid. Good job chasing off a potential umpire.

Chase him off? This is an ignorant statement. He is still at it. I did not work with him last year, so I have no idea if he has figured it out yet or not. Certainly, his one game working with me was not the only incident he had with veteran officials. My opinion of an umpire to our commissioner doesn't hold so much weight to hold them back from the varsity level, but a collective opinion sure would!