Can "FOUL" be made "FAIR"?

[Rich Ives]

"He must have seen the ball become foul"

Play description: "BR hits a shot down the 3rd baseline, hits the bag . ."


Hitting the bag makes it fair - period. PU must have really bad vision or needs a rules refresher.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

"He must have seen the ball become foul"

Play description: "BR hits a shot down the 3rd baseline, hits the bag . ."


Hitting the bag makes it fair - period. PU must have really bad vision or needs a rules refresher.

I guess I didn't make my point correctly. I was inferring that it's possible PU saw foul and the coach and PAT may be mistaken in thinking it hit the bag.

I agree that if it did in fact hit the bag, it's fair- period.

[mcrowder]

I see that several here have completely missed the point.

Yeah, this is PU's call. But PU's ego doesn't put him in position to make an incorrect ruling. And while TD probably handled this poorly, the TD certainly does have a responsibility to fixing PROTESTABLE situations.

The only way TD's actions are correct is if the coach protested (which is possible, although also handled wrong), AND the PU said he saw the ball hit the bag first and that was his reason for ruling it foul (thus making the whole thing a protestable rules misinterpretation, and not a judgement call).

If I was BU in a sitch like this, when PU yelled, "FOUL", I'd have approached him, away from coaches, and asked him what he saw. If it was even remotely a judgement thing (which would have to include him not seeing the ball hit the bag), play on - foul ball, and start herding the inevitable assitants away from PU while the head coach goes ballistic on him. However, if PU admits seeing the ball hit the bag, I'd remind him that by definition that makes it fair, and WE (meaning he) had an obligation to fix the situation. Then let HIM reverse the call and deal with the OTHER manager.

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Hitting the bag makes it fair - period.

Not always true. The ball may have hit something (such as a fielder) in foul territory before it hit the bag, that may be the reason for the strange bounce and the ball ending up in center field. Just because it hit the bag, it is not a fair ball - period. It appears from the OP that someone may have screwed the pooch on this one, but I was not there, and I don't think you were either, so don't throw out blanket statements. My issue is with the BU apparently calling a ball fair from the C position. If the PU kicked it, you gotta live with it, bring the BR back, runners return, and circle the wagons....someone is headed to the bus.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BigTex

Not always true. The ball may have hit something (such as a fielder) in foul territory before it hit the bag, that may be the reason for the strange bounce and the ball ending up in center field. Just because it hit the bag, it is not a fair ball - period. It appears from the OP that someone may have screwed the pooch on this one, but I was not there, and I don't think you were either, so don't throw out blanket statements. My issue is with the BU apparently calling a ball fair from the C position. If the PU kicked it, you gotta live with it, bring the BR back, runners return, and circle the wagons....someone is headed to the bus.

The description was "hit a shot - hit the bag". I really think if the ball hit someone in foul territory the original poster wouldn't have even posted the question.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by BigTex

Not always true. The ball may have hit something (such as a fielder) in foul territory before it hit the bag, that may be the reason for the strange bounce and the ball ending up in center field. Just because it hit the bag, it is not a fair ball - period. It appears from the OP that someone may have screwed the pooch on this one, but I was not there, and I don't think you were either, so don't throw out blanket statements. My issue is with the BU apparently calling a ball fair from the C position. If the PU kicked it, you gotta live with it, bring the BR back, runners return, and circle the wagons....someone is headed to the bus.

What???? Read the original post again....... If the ball, unobstructed by any fielder in foul territory (what was the fielder doing standing in foul territory?), hits the base (as described in the OP) then it's fair.....period! Spread out the blanket.

Unless an alien abducted the ball, dropped it in on the base and it then rolled into center field. In this situation Rule 13-1-1 clearly states that this is a "do over".

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Uncle George

It's the PU call to the bag, past the bag it the BU calls. In this case, if ball it's [sic] bag, PU as [sic] call.

Uncle George,

I made the statement based on other posts of yours which provided incorrect, or downright bad advice. I just wanted the impressionable youths who frequent this forum to be careful when receiving advice from you. I'm also sure that they should do the same with advice from others here, myself included.

The quote above is what you said in post #2 of this thread. In post #1, the original play said that the BU was in position "C," which is located inside the diamond. This makes your statement that the BU has the call past the bag incorrect for the situation as described. The fact that the BU has the fair/foul past the base when working in "A" is irrelevant in this case, and should not have been presented in your post.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by boyinblue24

I don't wanna make anyone mad but how is this right? I always thought that the BU always had the first call on bag, never the PU (that is the BU always has the first call if he saw the play. Just had to clarify that). Oh, & by the way I always thought that the outfield was divided into three parts (as in Plate Work, diagram 4-1B). I state this b/c Uncle George said that it was the BU's call if a ball went pass the bag. True, but you must be more specific where you are talking about that the BU can make the call. The PU has the call anywhere from the left side of rubber all the way to the wall & the right side of the rubber all the way to the wall to make a call (if the ball enters the outfield). The BU has everywhere in between. Hope this is right. If not please don't bite my head off.

Take a minute and go back to your basics, and read the situation!

BU in B or C, PU has ALL fair/foul calls! Period!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by boyinblue24

I don't wanna make anyone mad but how is this right? I always thought that the BU always had the first call on bag, never the PU (that is the BU always has the first call if he saw the play. Just had to clarify that). Oh, & by the way I always thought that the outfield was divided into three parts (as in Plate Work, diagram 4-1B). I state this b/c Uncle George said that it was the BU's call if a ball went pass the bag. True, but you must be more specific where you are talking about that the BU can make the call. The PU has the call anywhere from the left side of rubber all the way to the wall & the right side of the rubber all the way to the wall to make a call (if the ball enters the outfield). The BU has everywhere in between. Hope this is right. If not please don't bite my head off.

First of all, be very cautious when using Uncle George as a rules or mechanics reference, because he is often wrong.

Second, where are you getting some of this stuff? The BU has absolutely no fair or foul call when working inside the diamond. Period. He only has fair/foul on balls hit past the bag at 1st base when working in "A" position on the 1st base line, or when he goes out from that position. Where do you get this "left side" and "right side" of the rubber stuff?

[Uncle George]

[QUOTE=SanDiegoSteve]First of all, be very cautious when using Uncle George as a rules or mechanics reference, because he is often wrong.

SanDiegoSteve, here's what I posted:

"It's the PU call to the bag, past the bag its the BU call. In this case, if ball hit's bag, PU has call."

No where did I say I was right! In this situation, the PU has the ball to the bag! In a two person crew, with the BU in the "C" position, the PU has the ball all the way down the line! Is the right or wrong?

You know Steve, when other umps read this forms, I hope they don't take the information word for word. For me, I go the rule book, case book and umpires manual to "get it right"!

After every game when I'm working with a seasoned ump, I ask for crituque, whether it's bad or good. You learn from your mistakes. If I do write something wrong, let me know but don't degrad me. You don't make mistakes? Belittling umps on this forms dosen't help ther confidence, it just tears it down. I apologize that I'm not as smart as you.

Uncle George

[mcrowder]

[QUOTE=Uncle George]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

First of all, be very cautious when using Uncle George as a rules or mechanics reference, because he is often wrong.

SanDiegoSteve, here's what I posted:

"It's the PU call to the bag, past the bag its the BU call. In this case, if ball hit's bag, PU has call."

No where did I say I was right! In this situation, the PU has the ball to the bag! In a two person crew, with the BU in the "C" position, the PU has the ball all the way down the line! Is the right or wrong?

You know Steve, when other umps read this forms, I hope they don't take the information word for word. For me, I go the rule book, case book and umpires manual to "get it right"!

After every game when I'm working with a seasoned ump, I ask for crituque, whether it's bad or good. You learn from your mistakes. If I do write something wrong, let me know but don't degrad me. You don't make mistakes? Belittling umps on this forms dosen't help ther confidence, it just tears it down. I apologize that I'm not as smart as you.

Uncle George

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle. Nice try, but you really can't retract yourself out of this one. Pertaining to this actual thread and the first post, you were quite simply wrong. Just say, "Ooops, my bad" and move on. Trying to explain that in an alternate universe where the topic at hand was different, you might be right in an isolated case just makes you look foolish.

[TussAgee11]

The only time I'm ever turning Foul to Fair is when a) something so blatent has happened such as a rules mishap or b) if I have some sort of seizure and say foul ball on a pop up in foul territory before the ball hits the ground and a fielder catches it (which actually I think is i a FED casebook somewhere).

Regards, and thinking about living the dream of minor league ball after I graduate from college...

Tuss

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by boyinblue24

I don't wanna make anyone mad but how is this right? I always thought that the BU always had the first call on bag, never the PU (that is the BU always has the first call if he saw the play. Just had to clarify that). Oh, & by the way I always thought that the outfield was divided into three parts (as in Plate Work, diagram 4-1B). I state this b/c Uncle George said that it was the BU's call if a ball went pass the bag. True, but you must be more specific where you are talking about that the BU can make the call. The PU has the call anywhere from the left side of rubber all the way to the wall & the right side of the rubber all the way to the wall to make a call (if the ball enters the outfield). The BU has everywhere in between. Hope this is right. If not please don't bite my head off.

You're kidding, right? You're not on drugs, are you? Are your arm bands on too tight?

[DG]

PU has issues.

TD has issues.

If there was a protest the PU would have to say "yes I saw it hit the bag, but..." to overule him. If he said "it didn't hit the bag, it hit a rock in foul territory just beyond the bag"...

[LMan]

Originally Posted by DG

If there was a protest the PU would have to say "yes I saw it hit the bag, but..." to overule him. If he said "it didn't hit the bag, it hit a rock in foul territory just beyond the bag"...

I seriously doubt this guy would be smart enough to think of that one.