Can "FOUL" be made "FAIR"?

[PAT THE REF]

Hey Everyone,

Last year I was apart of a baseball tourn. here in NJ. I was watching a Legion "level" game where there was a dispute about fair vs. foul. Let me set it up for you:

R2 and R1, 1 out, for arguements sake a 2-2 count on the BR. BU in position "C". BR hits a shot down the 3rd baseline, hits the bag - makes a weird angle into fair territory. No call (at this point) but the BU points towards center field. (i was assume to signal fair)

As the ball lays in center field as F8 tries to recover it, R2 lands on 3rd, R1 lands on 2nd and BR is just about to hit first as we hear..."FOUL" from the PU.

The coach argues and the BU is telling his partner.. Its Fair!.... The PU says I'm running the game and I called it Foul, once it is foul, it is foul. Send the players back. As the BU was sending them back the coach called the tourn. director over and he placed the runners back on their bases that they "would have obtained".

I.e. changed a "FOUL" call to "FAIR"...

1) What would you do?
2) If a situation like this happens... can you keep the runners at their bases or once you call FOUL, do you die with that call?

[PeteBooth]

The coach argues and the BU is telling his partner.. Its Fair!.... The PU says I'm running the game and I called it Foul, once it is foul, it is foul. Send the players back. As the BU was sending them back the coach called the tourn. director over and he placed the runners back on their bases that they "would have obtained".

I.e. changed a "FOUL" call to "FAIR"...

1) What would you do?
2) If a situation like this happens... can you keep the runners at their bases or once you call FOUL, do you die with that call?

[/QUOTE]

In OBR based leagues a FOUL call can be changed to FAIR. We saw this last year in a PRO game and Andy Konar LL's chief umpire changed a FOUL call to FAIR in a LLWS game some years back.

You asked what would I do. Do you mean what would I do if I were the BU? I have made my share of mistakes in my umpiring career, but not the one you described. It's a no brainer when the ball hits either the first / 3rd base bag, so i will answer from the BU's perspective. If I were the PU and my partner did say to me "Hey Pete what's up" I would change the call and take the heat. In this case not to much because everyone reacted as if the ball were Fair anyhow.

One of the Cardinal rules of umpiring. When you need to discuss something with your partner Do it away from the coach In other words I would instruct the coach to stay away until I had time to discuss the situation with my partner. The BU should have kept his mouth shut in front of the coach.

Even though I was in position "C" and the Fair/ Foul call is not my call, I would say to my partner. Joe, the ball hit the bag. Were you looking at some GLM while the play was in progress. I would also say that We will not get a lot of heat if we indeed change the call, because the players reacted as if in fact the ball were Fair.

You as BU can state your point, but ultimately it's the PU's call.

As far as the TD over-turning a call on the Field - NO WAY. The TD has no business over-turning calls on the field. If the manager filed a protest, then the TD would get involved as far as whatever protest procedures are established for that league.

NOTE: If the aforementioned happened in a FED game, the FOUL call would stands no matter who didn't like it.

Pete Booth

[ozzy6900]

Well, I agree that the BU had no business pointing and that the PU has the ball all the way down the line. I am of the opinion that the PU is probably of LL-rookie caliber who thinks that the ball hitting the bag is foul (maybe it hit the foul side of the bag ).

As far as a TD walking on the field, when a TD walks on the field I ask him politely to leave. If he doesn't, my partner/partners and I leave and the game is done! The jerk only gets one shot and we always agree to this before we take the field.

[PAT THE REF]

To Clarify:

The ball hit the bag from a line shot, it did not hit anything before it nor would it have been viewed as a “foul ball” if so.

I did not want to get into this but… let me describe him to you... the pu wore a backwards cap, wore an inside protector – outside and kakis shorts.

He told me that he called it foul because it was so. He couldn’t give me an explanation and then proceeded to rant to be about his inadequate partner and why would he be on the 3rd base side of the diamond.(I know this from being his partner for the next game)

So its not what I thought I saw, it was what happened.

[mcrowder]

This call (especially when made so late that runners had advanced whole bases, as opposed to immediately after the hit) is most definitely protestable. If coach did that, it could be fixed the way TD fixed it.

However, in agreeance with Ozzy - if TD inserted himself directly, without umpires calling him over in order to deal with a protest, TD was flat out wrong.

Then again - idiotic PU didn't know that a ball hitting the bag was a fair ball ... I'm sure he did not know that TD's shouldn't be inserting themselves into games.

Pat - did you tell him he was wrong (both on the call and on the positioning of his partner)?

[GarthB]

Can foul be made fair?

Sure. Brinkman did it in Seattle on a shot down the third baseline in 2004. The result was that a Seattle R2 was put out and the manager was ejected.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Can foul be made fair?

Sure. Brinkman did it in Seattle on a shot down the third baseline in 2004. The result was that a Seattle R2 was put out and the manager was ejected.

And Andy Konyar did it on a ball down the left field line in a LLWS game. The result was a single turned into a standup triple, and a whole nation of LL umpires went through all kinds of silly rationalizations to avoid admitting that the Wizard of Williamsport simply screwed the pooch on that one.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by PAT THE REF

… let me describe him to you... the pu wore a backwards cap, wore an inside protector – outside and kakis shorts.

The critical issue is........were there wristbands involved?

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by PAT THE REF

I did not want to get into this but… let me describe him to you... the pu wore a backwards cap, wore an inside protector – outside and kakis shorts.

He told me that he called it foul because it was so. He couldn’t give me an explanation and then proceeded to rant to be about his inadequate partner and why would he be on the 3rd base side of the diamond.(I know this from being his partner for the next game)

So its not what I thought I saw, it was what happened.

Ok... thats where I was confused. Your OP said the Plate Umpire... clearly this game didn't have a plate umpire.

[Eastshire]

Maybe it was one of those fields where the foul line goes to the middle of the bag. I hate those. I always tell the coaches we're going to play the lines as marked but if it hits the bag it's fair.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by PAT THE REF

1) What would you do?

Shoot the Tournament Director.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by lawump

Shoot the Tournament Director.

...and if the body falls into DBT, everyone gets one base.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by LMan

...and if the body falls into DBT, everyone gets one base.

Now, I don't care who you are: That's funny.

[Uncle George]

It's the PU call to the bag, past the bag it the BU calls. In this case, if ball it's bag, PU as call.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Uncle George

It's the PU call to the bag, past the bag it the BU calls. In this case, if ball it's bag, PU as call.

Actually, with BU in position C, as was stated in the OP, PU has ALL fair/foul responsibility. So in my opinion, it's the PU that should be upset with his partner, not the other way around.

As far as changing the call on the field, in the 2-man system, this is PU's call. He must have seen the ball become foul. Otherwise, why in the world would he declair a ball that is resting in center field foul? I admit that this would be a tough sell, but he must have seen it become foul.

As far as the TD becoming involved with this play.... not on my watch. That would defintely be the last time I work a game in a tournament being run by him.