Definition of a fair ball

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by TheWhiteShadow

SAump, that was my original question:

2-5-1-f: A fair ball is a batted ball which while on or over fair territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, their clothing or equipment.

Does clothing/equipment need to be worn by/attached to player/umpire?

That depends. Is it a day game or a night game?

[TheWhiteShadow]

Originally Posted by GarthB

That depends. Is it a day game or a night game?

Day-night doubleheader. And to make it even more confusing, they opened the top of the dome for the second game after it stopped raining.

[GarthB]

Doesn't look like you get it yet.

Was it above or below 53 degrees?


(Aside to Tim: You've got your work cut out for you.)

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by TheWhiteShadow

Day-night doubleheader. And to make it even more confusing, they opened the top of the dome for the second game after it stopped raining.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by SAump

Don't assume. The batter and fielder must accept responsibility for properly worn equipment. I have FAIR ball in all three situations, so play on Willie. Same as if the catcher chasing a PB/WP/throw stumbles and kicks it. He better get back up and PLAY. I really don't care how his glove/hat/helmet unintentionally came off. Coach JM hit the nail squarely on the head, "Absent any intent, if a fair batted ball hits it in fair territory, play on. If a batted ball hits it on or over foul territory while live, it's a foul ball."

Coach JM was right in post #2. I had not paid much attention to it. Then he changed the ruling in post #7 and was right again. I had hung my hat on it. Coach JM later corrected his error in post #45 and was still right again. I kept asking for CoachJM to explain why he would first call one play foul, then fair, and then foul again. I wanted to know the difference between post 2, 7 and 45; or if anyone could help me understand what was going on. That "hat" I was relying on accidently fell off my head and hit the turf when I stumbled.

My entire argument rested on the fact that I had initially read "a fair batted ball hits it" in post #7. I got distracted and couldn't see why a fair ball could be foul. I now see he meant to say a batted ball all along and was unaware of his own mistake. I was also unaware of the difference until the rug was pulled out from under me. So much for the grand canal theory. But Coach, I would never ever change a foul call to fair. That was ugly.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by SAump

What do I think? I think a fair ball stays fair, no matter where it settles.

For a moment, it sounded like you got it... then you lost it again.

If a ball hits a pebble in fair territory, and rolls foul before passing 1st or 3rd base, what do you call?

Now ... change pebble to helmet and your answer should be the same.

If you don't get that, stop umpiring.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

For a moment, it sounded like you got it... then you lost it again.

If a ball hits a pebble in fair territory, and rolls foul before passing 1st or 3rd base, what do you call?

Now ... change pebble to helmet and your answer should be the same.

If you don't get that, stop umpiring.

I think he's pointing out that there's a difference between "a batted ball in fair territory" and "a ball that has been judged to have become fair because of meeting one of the requirements." The phrase "fair ball" is often used to describe both, when perhaps "batted ball" should be used for the former and "fair ball" for the latter. Shrug. IMO, context will usually tell you which meaning is being used.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SAump

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJM
and JEA:

"Any fair ball which contacts any object foreign to the natural ground in the general vicinity of the plate shall be ruled fair or foul depending on where the ball settles or is touched. ... "

Absent any intent, if a fair batted ball hits it in fair territory, play on. If a batted ball hits it on or over foul territory while live, it's a foul ball.

What do you think?

JM



What do I think? I think a fair ball stays fair, no matter where it settles.

CoachJM answered in post 45.

You apparently missed that - or are deliberately ignoring it.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by SAump

Coach JM hit the nail squarely on the head, "Absent any intent, if a fair batted ball hits it in fair territory, play on. If a batted ball hits it on or over foul territory while live, it's a foul ball."

Quote:
Since there is no FED rule or ruling/interpretation that contradicts these OBR rulings or suggests they would be treated differently in a FED-based game,

FED 2.5.1E The batter hits the ball, drops the bat and it unintentionally hits the ball a second time in ... (c) fair territory and is either touched by a fielder and/or comes to rest in foul territory. Ruling: In ...(c) the ball is fair.

Originally Posted by SAump

The ball has met all of MY established criteria for a FAIR batted BALL. There is nothing either batter or fielder can unintentionally do to remove that. I don't care if a gust of wind rolls the ball foul after contact w/ hat, glove or helmet. Now if it was done intentionally, then I would rule otherwise and stop Willie immediately.

I'm not sure if its a context issue or a multiple redundancy issue? I added Bob's explanation as it is the closest one to being FAIR. It's one thing to write about a fair batted ball or a batted ball over fair territory as Bob has correctly pointed out. It's another to write about a fair batted ball in fair territory. Also that damn helmet/pebble analogy is tougher to understand than the helmet/bat anaolgy I expected (post 11 above) to find.

I had no intention of bringing up the same subject for another round of discussion. I was merely trying to point out why post 45 was necessary. I would like to thank Bob J again for pointing that out somehwere back around post 50. I can't understand how Bob understands me and why I still need a translator to get a point across. Did I miss something there GMBoy (not BOB)? Oh, PFISTO is a post deleter.

Originally Posted by SAump

D has been discussed, first by CoachJM in post number 7, and I have already stated my opinion of the ruling. Perhaps, CoachJM will be kind enuf to expalin why he rules foul in all 3 situations covered in post #2. I defer the balance of my time here to others.

I should of stopped at 18, but getting here was more fun. I told you that a long time ago.

[Rich Ives]

SAump:

If a batter removes his helmet and tries to hit a pitch, and misses, is it a strike?

2.00 A STRIKE is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire, which --
(a) Is struck at by the batter and is missed;

Doesn't say "struck at with his bat" after all.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think (but it's hard to tell with your writing style), that you are mis-interpreting "play on" when the ball contacts an object in fair territory. It does not mean "the ball is fair"; it means "the ball is not yet fair or foul and what happens later will determine whether it becomes fair or foul."

IOW, if the ball touches a foreign object in foul territory, we recognize the touch and declare the ball foul. If the ball touches a foreign object in fair territory, we ignore the touch and treat it just as if the ball took a funny hop.

I would caution young umpires to be careful reading that pebble = helmet argument. I find half of it to be very weak. A pebble is treated very differently. After reading through the material, I would say BOB also provides the best answer above. The play continues when the ball is touched or settles over fair territory and NO longer "remains in PLAY" if it is declared FOUL.

Originally Posted by SDS

You really are the guy that "tastes the buttery crust," aren't you?

Butter one more UP by the way. I would be willing to entertain thoughts about a falling player loosing both his cap and glove after colliding with an umpire in the vicinity of home plate. {All for one and one for all.} Glad the coaches and fans I know don't really pay much attention to this rule because that umpire is highly QUALIFIED not to be there in the first place. I would be willing to bet the rules would change after a lengthy protest and another coaches poll. I would have missed test item #33 too. Please comment if you know of a real situation where the possibility of the likeness of any of these events may have occurred. Gotta get the word out to those pollsters.

[TheWhiteShadow]

Originally Posted by SAump

I was hoping the whiteshadow would have explained what he has learned so far.

Never suddenly go off your medication without your doctor's supervision.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by TheWhiteShadow

Never suddenly go off your medication without your doctor's supervision.

A little S-N-L never hurt anyone. A lack of humor and of a lack of patience are a bad thing. Some folks are much too serious. Why didn't you SUM it all UP for us ONE more TIME? You may have learned something. FOUL or is it FOUL ball?

[SAump]

Post #5 Fri Feb 16, 2007, 03:30pm
Tim C
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,826

Hmmm,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
CoachJM:
Bruce's questions are valid.
When is something "foreign" to the field?
You say a hat does not count . . . what about a glove (not on hand)?
Please direct me to a Federation reference that helps me understand what is "foreign" and what is not?

When do we draw the line . . . we know if it hits a pebble it can still role foul: what about a catcher's mask that unintentionally contacts the ball while the ball is in fair territory?
Some would contend that "foreign" does not mean equipment.
Regards,
(39/40 missed #33)
__________________
Tim Christensen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Tim C : Fri Feb 16, 2007 at 03:47pm.

-----------------------------------------
There is more in this thread than first meets the eye. Just to be SAFE, I own PART of it NOW!