Definition of a fair ball

[TheWhiteShadow]

Just trying to make sure I understand completely. Please bear with me.

2-5-1-f: A fair ball is a batted ball which while on or over fair territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, their clothing or equipment.

Does clothing/equipment need to be worn by/attached to player/umpire? For example:

a) On a bunt down the base line, the infielder's hat falls off while he is attempting to field the ball and the hat hits the ball in fair territory which then rolls into foul territory before passing/touching the base (and nothing else touched the ball other than the hat)

b) Similar as above but runner's helmet falls off (unintentional) and hits ball in fair territory before it goes foul

c) Another bunt, umpire takes off his mask when following the ball down the line but in doing so he accidentally loses his indicator and it hits the ball in fair territory and then rolls foul

Are these fair or foul?

[UmpJM]

Whiteshadow,

a) Foul

b) Foul

c) Foul

One of the trickier concepts regarding fair/foul is contact with an object "foreign to the natural ground". Hitting one of these foreign objects in FAIR territory does NOT determine the fair/foul status of a batted ball. Hitting a foreign object on/over foul territory makes the ball Foul.

JM

[LMan]

That's gotta be one heavy indicator.

[bossman72]

TWS,

Here's a good link to help you out with the fair/foul rule:

http://www.amateurumpire.com/others/rs/rs08.htm

[TheWhiteShadow]

Originally Posted by Tim C

When is something "foreign" to the field?

You say a hat does not count . . . what about a glove (not on hand)?

I was worried about asking this question at first because I thought I was missing something obvious and would get flamed for it. But if Tim C has the same question, then maybe I'm not such a newbie after all

OK, so the batter bunts down the base line and the pitcher is running over to field the ball but he trips over his own feet and in the act of falling to the ground his glove comes off and it hits the ball while in fair territory and then the ball settles in foul territory before the base and no one else has touched it. According to CB 8.3.3.F, if a detached glove is accidental then it is not a penalty. What do you have? Does the glove cease to become a player's equipment as soon as it leaves his hand? Does the touching not count because the player was not wearing the glove?

[UmpJM]

Tim,

I am not aware of any FED reference that explictly delineates what is or is not a "foreign object" - I'm guessing that is at least partially the point you are raising.

I believe the proper interpretation is that "foreign objects" are man-made things and that "natural objects" are not.

I do believe there is precedent for considering equipment on the playing field (when not being worn/properly attached to the person of a player - or umpire, for that matter) to be a "foreign object".

From J/R (Rules Differences Edition):

Unnatural objects would include a base, pitching rubber..., rosin bag, helmet, any portion of a broken bat,.... or similar object that may be on the playing field.

...

Birds, animals, rocks, and dirt clods are all considered to be natural objects. ...

Though specifically referring to OBR, rather than FED rules, we also have from the MLBUM:

If a batted ball strikes a loose helmet accidentally (no intent on part of runner to interfere) in fair territory, the ball remains in play the same as if it had not hit the helmet.
If a batted ball strikes a helmet accidentally (no intent on part of runner to interfere) in foul territory, it is a foul ball.

and JEA:

...
Any foul ball which contacts any object foreign to the natural ground (e.g. a helmet, a bat, a mask) shall be ruled "foul" regardless of where it settles or is touched.
Any fair ball which contacts any object foreign to the natural ground in the general vicinity of the plate shall be ruled fair or foul depending on where the ball settles or is touched. ...

Since there is no FED rule or ruling/interpretation that contradicts these OBR rulings or suggests they would be treated differently in a FED-based game, I would be inclined to rule that any piece of equipment or clothing which is lying on the field of playand not properly attached as a "foreign object".

Absent any intent, if a fair batted ball hits it in fair territory, play on. If a batted ball hits it on or over foul territory while live, it's a foul ball.

What do you think?

JM

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by TheWhiteShadow

Just trying to make sure I understand completely. Please bear with me.

2-5-1-f: A fair ball is a batted ball which while on or over fair territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, their clothing or equipment.

Does clothing/equipment need to be worn by/attached to player/umpire? For example:

a) On a bunt down the base line, the infielder's hat falls off while he is attempting to field the ball and the hat hits the ball in fair territory which then rolls into foul territory before passing/touching the base (and nothing else touched the ball other than the hat)

b) Similar as above but runner's helmet falls off (unintentional) and hits ball in fair territory before it goes foul

c) Another bunt, umpire takes off his mask when following the ball down the line but in doing so he accidentally loses his indicator and it hits the ball in fair territory and then rolls foul

Are these fair or foul?

Unless someone posts some ruling, I have foul for all these situations, if the ball settles in foul territory.

If after hitting one of those objects, it is touched while in fair territory, I've got a fair ball.

So in other words, to me, those objects are the same as a pebble.

We also have to assume the equipment became detached accidentally.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by nickrego

Unless someone posts some ruling, I have foul for all these situations, if the ball settles in foul territory.

If after hitting one of those objects, it is touched while in fair territory, I've got a fair ball.

So in other words, to me, those objects are the same as a pebble.

We also have to assume the equipment became detached accidentally.

Don't assume. The batter and fielder must accept responsibility for properly worn equipment. I have FAIR ball in all three situations, so play on Willie. Same as if the catcher chasing a PB/WP/throw stumbles and kicks it. He better get back up and PLAY. I really don't care how his glove/hat/helmet unintentionally came off. Coach JM hit the nail squarely on the head, "Absent any intent, if a fair batted ball hits it in fair territory, play on. If a batted ball hits it on or over foul territory while live, it's a foul ball."

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SAump

Don't assume. The batter and fielder must accept responsibility for properly worn equipment. I have FAIR ball in all three situations, so play on Willie. Same as if the catcher chasing a PB/WP/throw stumbles and kicks it. He better get back up and PLAY. I really don't care how his glove/hat/helmet unintentionally came off. Coach JM hit the nail squarely on the head, "Absent any intent, if a fair batted ball hits it in fair territory, play on. If a batted ball hits it on or over foul territory while live, it's a foul ball."

I have FAIR ball in all three situations,

And you'd be wrong. "Play on" includes the possibility of the ball going foul - which it did, so it's foul.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Since there is no FED rule or ruling/interpretation that contradicts these OBR rulings or suggests they would be treated differently in a FED-based game,

FED 2.5.1E The batter hits the ball, drops the bat and it unintentionally hits the ball a second time in ... (c) fair territory and is either touched by a fielder and/or comes to rest in foul territory. Ruling: In ...(c) the ball is fair.

[TheWhiteShadow]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

FED 2.5.1E The batter hits the ball, drops the bat and it unintentionally hits the ball a second time in ... (c) fair territory and is either touched by a fielder and/or comes to rest in foul territory. Ruling: In ...(c) the ball is fair.

2.16.1.D has almost the exact same scenario but it is ruled foul and it states that the "bat is considered to be part of the playing field".

(Originally this said 2.16.1.C, but that was a typo as I really meant 2.16.1.D).

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

I have FAIR ball in all three situations,

And you'd be wrong. "Play on" includes the possibility of the ball going foul - which it did, so it's foul.

The ball has met all of MY established criteria for a FAIR batted BALL. There is nothing either batter or fielder can unintentionally do to remove that. I don't care if a gust of wind rolls the ball foul after contact w/ hat, glove or helmet. Now if it was done intentionally, then I would rule otherwise and stop Willie immediately.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by TheWhiteShadow

2.16.1.C has almost the exact same scenario but it is ruled foul and it states that the "bat is considered to be part of the playing field".

2. Playing terms and definitions, 16. Foul, Foul Tip, A1. A foul is a batted ball, C. That first falls on foul territorty beyond first or third base. That is my INTERP, what is yours?

Bat is not hat, mitt, or helmet. I would like to know why you consider what 2.16.1.C scenario is ruled foul by reason of a deflection?

Deflection from wind or pebble, Foul.
Deflection from hat, mitt, or helmet, Fair.
JMLOHO

[SAump]

Originally Posted by TheWhiteShadow

Just trying to make sure I understand completely. Please bear with me.

2-5-1-f: A fair ball is a batted ball which while on or over fair territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, their clothing or equipment.

Does clothing/equipment need to be worn by/attached to player/umpire?

Yes, in all juridictions of the USA.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by TheWhiteShadow

I was worried about asking this question at first because I thought I was missing something obvious and would get flamed for it. But if Tim C has the same question, then maybe I'm not such a newbie after all

OK, so the batter bunts down the base line and the pitcher is running over to field the ball but he trips over his own feet and in the act of falling to the ground his glove comes off and it hits the ball while in fair territory and then the ball settles in foul territory before the base and no one else has touched it. According to CB 8.3.3.F, if a detached glove is accidental then it is not a penalty. What do you have? Does the glove cease to become a player's equipment as soon as it leaves his hand? Does the touching not count because the player was not wearing the glove?

Three base award on contact with thrown detached equipment.
Anyone who says it was unintentional was picking nits. See YA.
Don't make it harder than it is. It is plenty tough already.