Definition of a fair ball

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SAump

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJM
and JEA:

"Any fair ball which contacts any object foreign to the natural ground in the general vicinity of the plate shall be ruled fair or foul depending on where the ball settles or is touched. ... "

Absent any intent, if a fair batted ball hits it in fair territory, play on. If a batted ball hits it on or over foul territory while live, it's a foul ball.

What do you think?

JM



What do I think? I think a fair ball stays fair, no matter where it settles.

CoachJM answered in post 45.

You apparently missed that - or are deliberately ignoring it.

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by TheWhiteShadow

Just trying to make sure I understand completely. Please bear with me.

2-5-1-f: A fair ball is a batted ball which while on or over fair territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, their clothing or equipment.

Does clothing/equipment need to be worn by/attached to player/umpire? For example:

a) On a bunt down the base line, the infielder's hat falls off while he is attempting to field the ball and the hat hits the ball in fair territory which then rolls into foul territory before passing/touching the base (and nothing else touched the ball other than the hat)

b) Similar as above but runner's helmet falls off (unintentional) and hits ball in fair territory before it goes foul

c) Another bunt, umpire takes off his mask when following the ball down the line but in doing so he accidentally loses his indicator and it hits the ball in fair territory and then rolls foul

Are these fair or foul?

Unless someone posts some ruling, I have foul for all these situations, if the ball settles in foul territory.

If after hitting one of those objects, it is touched while in fair territory, I've got a fair ball.

So in other words, to me, those objects are the same as a pebble.

We also have to assume the equipment became detached accidentally.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by nickrego

Unless someone posts some ruling, I have foul for all these situations, if the ball settles in foul territory.

If after hitting one of those objects, it is touched while in fair territory, I've got a fair ball.

So in other words, to me, those objects are the same as a pebble.

We also have to assume the equipment became detached accidentally.

Don't assume. The batter and fielder must accept responsibility for properly worn equipment. I have FAIR ball in all three situations, so play on Willie. Same as if the catcher chasing a PB/WP/throw stumbles and kicks it. He better get back up and PLAY. I really don't care how his glove/hat/helmet unintentionally came off. Coach JM hit the nail squarely on the head, "Absent any intent, if a fair batted ball hits it in fair territory, play on. If a batted ball hits it on or over foul territory while live, it's a foul ball."

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SAump

Don't assume. The batter and fielder must accept responsibility for properly worn equipment. I have FAIR ball in all three situations, so play on Willie. Same as if the catcher chasing a PB/WP/throw stumbles and kicks it. He better get back up and PLAY. I really don't care how his glove/hat/helmet unintentionally came off. Coach JM hit the nail squarely on the head, "Absent any intent, if a fair batted ball hits it in fair territory, play on. If a batted ball hits it on or over foul territory while live, it's a foul ball."

I have FAIR ball in all three situations,

And you'd be wrong. "Play on" includes the possibility of the ball going foul - which it did, so it's foul.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

I have FAIR ball in all three situations,

And you'd be wrong. "Play on" includes the possibility of the ball going foul - which it did, so it's foul.

The ball has met all of MY established criteria for a FAIR batted BALL. There is nothing either batter or fielder can unintentionally do to remove that. I don't care if a gust of wind rolls the ball foul after contact w/ hat, glove or helmet. Now if it was done intentionally, then I would rule otherwise and stop Willie immediately.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by SAump

Coach JM hit the nail squarely on the head, "Absent any intent, if a fair batted ball hits it in fair territory, play on. If a batted ball hits it on or over foul territory while live, it's a foul ball."

Quote:
Since there is no FED rule or ruling/interpretation that contradicts these OBR rulings or suggests they would be treated differently in a FED-based game,

FED 2.5.1E The batter hits the ball, drops the bat and it unintentionally hits the ball a second time in ... (c) fair territory and is either touched by a fielder and/or comes to rest in foul territory. Ruling: In ...(c) the ball is fair.

Originally Posted by SAump

The ball has met all of MY established criteria for a FAIR batted BALL. There is nothing either batter or fielder can unintentionally do to remove that. I don't care if a gust of wind rolls the ball foul after contact w/ hat, glove or helmet. Now if it was done intentionally, then I would rule otherwise and stop Willie immediately.

I'm not sure if its a context issue or a multiple redundancy issue? I added Bob's explanation as it is the closest one to being FAIR. It's one thing to write about a fair batted ball or a batted ball over fair territory as Bob has correctly pointed out. It's another to write about a fair batted ball in fair territory. Also that damn helmet/pebble analogy is tougher to understand than the helmet/bat anaolgy I expected (post 11 above) to find.

I had no intention of bringing up the same subject for another round of discussion. I was merely trying to point out why post 45 was necessary. I would like to thank Bob J again for pointing that out somehwere back around post 50. I can't understand how Bob understands me and why I still need a translator to get a point across. Did I miss something there GMBoy (not BOB)? Oh, PFISTO is a post deleter.

Originally Posted by SAump

D has been discussed, first by CoachJM in post number 7, and I have already stated my opinion of the ruling. Perhaps, CoachJM will be kind enuf to expalin why he rules foul in all 3 situations covered in post #2. I defer the balance of my time here to others.

I should of stopped at 18, but getting here was more fun. I told you that a long time ago.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by SAump

Don't assume. The batter and fielder must accept responsibility for properly worn equipment. I have FAIR ball in all three situations, so play on Willie. Same as if the catcher chasing a PB/WP/throw stumbles and kicks it. He better get back up and PLAY. I really don't care how his glove/hat/helmet unintentionally came off. Coach JM hit the nail squarely on the head, "Absent any intent, if a fair batted ball hits it in fair territory, play on. If a batted ball hits it on or over foul territory while live, it's a foul ball."

Coach JM was right in post #2. I had not paid much attention to it. Then he changed the ruling in post #7 and was right again. I had hung my hat on it. Coach JM later corrected his error in post #45 and was still right again. I kept asking for CoachJM to explain why he would first call one play foul, then fair, and then foul again. I wanted to know the difference between post 2, 7 and 45; or if anyone could help me understand what was going on. That "hat" I was relying on accidently fell off my head and hit the turf when I stumbled.

My entire argument rested on the fact that I had initially read "a fair batted ball hits it" in post #7. I got distracted and couldn't see why a fair ball could be foul. I now see he meant to say a batted ball all along and was unaware of his own mistake. I was also unaware of the difference until the rug was pulled out from under me. So much for the grand canal theory. But Coach, I would never ever change a foul call to fair. That was ugly.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by TheWhiteShadow

Just trying to make sure I understand completely. Please bear with me.

2-5-1-f: A fair ball is a batted ball which while on or over fair territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, their clothing or equipment.

Does clothing/equipment need to be worn by/attached to player/umpire?

Yes, in all juridictions of the USA.

[SAump]

Post #5 Fri Feb 16, 2007, 03:30pm
Tim C
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,826

Hmmm,
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CoachJM:
Bruce's questions are valid.
When is something "foreign" to the field?
You say a hat does not count . . . what about a glove (not on hand)?
Please direct me to a Federation reference that helps me understand what is "foreign" and what is not?

When do we draw the line . . . we know if it hits a pebble it can still role foul: what about a catcher's mask that unintentionally contacts the ball while the ball is in fair territory?
Some would contend that "foreign" does not mean equipment.
Regards,
(39/40 missed #33)
__________________
Tim Christensen
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Last edited by Tim C : Fri Feb 16, 2007 at 03:47pm.

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There is more in this thread than first meets the eye. Just to be SAFE, I own PART of it NOW!