FED: Passing an awarded base

[ctblu40]

Gentlemen-

I've been attending the clinics for new umpires to our HS association to help out as much as I can. Last night we were discussing certain mechanics and this situation came up.

R1, less than 2 outs, 3-2 count on the batter. R1 is stealing on the pitch, and the batter receives ball 4. We all know that this means that R1 is also given a live ball award of 2nd base because he's forced.

However:

In the sitch described by our rules interpretor, neither R1 nor the fielder covering second on the steal were aware that the pitch was ruled a ball and continued with the play at second. R1 slides on the outfield side of second, and is unable to reach the bag. His momentum carries him to the left-centerfield side of the bag where the tag is applied by the fielder.

I contend that R1 is out because he has passed the base that he was awarded and is now in peril. The clinician argues that since he didn't touch second on his way by, he is still protected by the award.

I'm almost certain I'm right (R1 out) but have some doubt. Any NFHS rule or casebook reference would be appreciated.

Thanks guys!

[greymule]

Is the clinician saying that if R1 had touched 2B and then overslid and was tagged, he would be out, but because he missed 2B before the overslide, he is entitled to 2B and can't be tagged out?

I haven't done Fed in years, but either way it's an out unless Fed has made some peculiar exception (which I doubt).

To take an extreme example, what if the throw had gone into center field and R1 then missed 2B and attempted to make 3B but was tagged out. By this clinician's logic, R1 would be sent back to 2B, never having touched it and now entitled to his award.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by greymule

Is the clinician saying that if R1 had touched 2B and then overslid and was tagged, he would be out, but because he missed 2B before the overslide, he is entitled to 2B and can't be tagged out?

This is pretty much word for word what he said.

Originally Posted by greymule

To take an extreme example, what if the throw had gone into center field and R1 then missed 2B and attempted to make 3B but was tagged out. By this clinician's logic, R1 would be sent back to 2B, never having touched it and now entitled to his award.

This was my response as well to which he replied, "In your situation, he's making an attempt for third. That's the difference."

I don't get it. I was wondering if this is some sort of new FED rule.

He challenged me to find a rule that refutes his interpretation. I can't find one in the FED book, but that doesn't mean he's right, a point I made with him last night.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I can't find a FED reference either, but in OBR, it states that a runner forced to advance without liability to be put out may advance past the base to which he is entitled only at his peril.

To my understanding, if you overslide a base you are entitled to on a live ball award, such as a base on balls or detached equipment, and you get tagged, you are out.

I say his overslide is the same as turning and heading for third. He must touch the base to which he is forced to advance as a result of the batter becoming a runner.

[Durham]

I think that by rule we all agree what the rule is, but I would have to see this play.

In this situation did the this guys slide 3 feet past the bag or 1/2 an inch?

[Eastshire]

So an unsuccessful attempt to stop at a base is tantamount to attempting to advance?

So Stoping=Going?

Shouldn't this be similar to the liability of the BR at first base on an overrun? We don't treat a player as having touched a missed base in the middle of playing action at that base for appeals purposes; why would we for award purposes?

[bluezebra]

Runner overslides awarded 2B base. Not an attempt to advance, but he's still in jeopardy. OUT!! He's only protected to the awarded base.

Bob

[David B]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

So an unsuccessful attempt to stop at a base is tantamount to attempting to advance?

So Stoping=Going?

Shouldn't this be similar to the liability of the BR at first base on an overrun? We don't treat a player as having touched a missed base in the middle of playing action at that base for appeals purposes; why would we for award purposes?

If the BR oversteps first on a walk he can be tagged out in FED. He is awarded the base but if he overruns the bag he is in danger of an out.
8-2-6; 5.1.4b

I haven't found the situation at second yet, but the runner at second is also in danger of being tagged out for overrunning the bag.

Thanks
David

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Shouldn't this be similar to the liability of the BR at first base on an overrun? We don't treat a player as having touched a missed base in the middle of playing action at that base for appeals purposes; why would we for award purposes?

Because the runner is allowed to overrun first base by rule, whereas he is not allowed to overrun 2nd or 3rd, without liability to be put out. If it were a dead ball award, yes overrunning the bases would be OK, but not when the ball remains alive, as in a called base on balls or a detached equipment award.

[ctblu40]

... for the rational replies.

Just to give a little history, the clinician in question is a pretty darn good umpire, and is the HS associations rules interpretor. I've had disagreements with him before on interpretations that he's made, and each time I question him (usually privately, but sometime in a group), he refuses to even discuss his ruling. He has never once said, "Oh, I get it now. I was mistaken."

The problem I have is that he doesn't revisit the sitch with the rest of the board therefore many of the umpires just take his word for it. Not good.

[Az.Ump]

Rule 8-2-6: A batter-runner who reaches first base safely and then overruns or overslides may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second. A player who is awarded first base on a base on balls does not have this right.

If the BR is in jeopardy (where he normally would not be) then all other runners should be subject to the same enforcement. R1 is out after he passes 2B and is tagged (1/2” or 3’ ).

Paul

[lawump]

This exact play happened about 5 to 7 years ago to Kerwin Danley in an MLB game. The Yankees were in the field. Ball 4 was called. The runner had taken off on the pitch, his head was down. He slid into second base...and kept going beyond second. Jeter put the tag on him. Danley put his hands up and said (I'm guessing...since there was no audio of him, only of the announcers), "that's ball four." Jeter started to discuss it with Danley, arguing that he went beyond second. Danley quickly realized Jeter was right, and changed his call and banged the runner out.

That out call stood. I have seen this play on video numerous times.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Az.Ump

Rule 8-2-6: A batter-runner who reaches first base safely and then overruns or overslides may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second. A player who is awarded first base on a base on balls does not have this right.

If the BR is in jeopardy (where he normally would not be) then all other runners should be subject to the same enforcement. R1 is out after he passes 2B and is tagged (1/2” or 3’ ).

Paul

I said pretty much this as well, his answer was, "But the runner hasn't touched second, he missed it. He's protected to the base."

I'm now convinced that his ruling is wrong.

[TussAgee11]

What we've agreed is that oversliding / overrunning is the same interpretation as missing the bag. Once you go past it (back heel normally), you've attained that base.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

"But the runner hasn't touched second, he missed it. He's protected to the base."

He is right on that, he is protected to the base, but not past the base. You could try telling him that, although it appears that that would be a waste of time.