Should 2 outs have been awarded ?

nickrego · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 17, 2006, 02:36pm

Bases loaded, no outs.

Batter hits a grounder to F6.

R2 is hit by the ball in front of F6 in an attempt to jump over the ball.

My partner, on the bases, immediately kills play, and calls R2 out. R3 returns to 3rd, R1 advances to 2nd, and BR advances to 1st.

Afterwards, I started thinking that the interference broke up an easy Double-Play.

I checked the rule book, and unlike in other sections, it does not specifically state we can award a 2nd out, where a 2nd out may have been prevented by the infraction.

Did this get handled correctly ?

SanDiegoSteve · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 17, 2006, 02:54pm

Nick,

In an OBR game, the runner's action would have to be judged willful and deliberate in order to get the 2nd out (7.09(g).

FED says if it was an IFF, then both the runner and batter would be called out 8-4-2(k)NOTE.

I say you got the call right, unless you think the runner intentionally let the ball hit him.

greymule · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 17, 2006, 03:07pm

In OBR, sometimes unintentional interference turns out to benefit the interferer. Umpires who try to make all their rulings fit into the concept of "fair" can get themselves into trouble.

(I don't believe it is possible in baseball, but in softball it's apparently possible for intentional interference to benefit the interferer!)

UMP25 · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 17, 2006, 10:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by nickrego
Bases loaded, no outs.

Batter hits a grounder to F6.

R2 is hit by the ball in front of F6 in an attempt to jump over the ball.

My partner, on the bases, immediately kills play, and calls R2 out. R3 returns to 3rd, R1 advances to 2nd, and BR advances to 1st.

Afterwards, I started thinking that the interference broke up an easy Double-Play.

I checked the rule book, and unlike in other sections, it does not specifically state we can award a 2nd out, where a 2nd out may have been prevented by the infraction.

Did this get handled correctly ?

Your partner made the correct call, but no runs score here. It's a simple interference call on R2. It's not interference on an "obvious and imminent" double play, as it's sometimes called. This is different from the traditional second-to-first double play on which R1 interferes, for example.

[Edited by UMP25 on Mar 18th, 2006 at 12:07 PM]

SanDiegoSteve · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 18, 2006, 02:58am

No. Not unless the runner willfully and deliberately interfered with the fielding of the ball. If it was unintentional in the umpire's judgment, all runners who are forced advance, and the batter-runner is awarded first base, and with bases loaded, a run would score.

Had it been willfull and deliberate interference, with the bases loaded, you would call the runner out for interference, and also the batter-runner. You would return all runners to the bases they occupied at the time of the pitch. In no event shall bases be run for this interference, nor any runs score. See Rule 7.09(g).

A more severe penalty is proscribed for a batter-runner willfully and deliberately interfering with the fielding of a batted ball. In this case, the runner closest to home is called out, as well as the batter-runner. See Rule 7.09(h).
__________________________________________________ ________
Edited to reflect that I have concluded that the first paragraph is wrong. No run should score, and R3 should be returned to 3rd due to the force being removed at the time R2 was hit with the ball.

[Edited by SanDiegoSteve on Mar 19th, 2006 at 02:11 AM]

nickrego · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 18, 2006, 02:59am

That is how you would think it should be, but...

NFHS 8-4-2k says the RUNNER is out when hit by a fair batted ball...

There are no references in sec. 8 or 7 (Batting) indicating the batter is ever out when a runner is hit by the ball.

It seems to me that in all cases, the BATTER should be out, and all runners return. Nice and simple. It just feels wierd calling the runner out, awarding the batter 1st, and advancing the runners who are forced by the batter's award of 1st.

SanDiegoSteve · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 18, 2006, 03:11am

If the umpire judges that the runner intentionally allowed the batted ball to hit him, it becomes interference, and the rules governing interference trump 8-4-2(k).

greymule · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 18, 2006, 07:49am

It just feels weird calling the runner out, awarding the batter 1st, and advancing the runners who are forced by the batter's award of 1st.

Credit the batter with a hit, too.

cmcramer · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 18, 2006, 11:12am

I hope I am following this discussion correctly...

SanDiego Steve wrote "If it was unintentional in the umpire's judgment, all runners who are forced advance, and the batter-runner is awarded first base, and with bases loaded, a run would score."

A run scores on interference on R2 with bases loaded no outs? In Fed? Really?

Original post says, "My partner, on the bases, immediately kills play, and calls R2 out. R3 returns to 3rd, R1 advances to 2nd, and BR advances to 1st."

And several replies say he got it right.

I'm a little confused now.

officialtony · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 18, 2006, 11:47am

I'm with cmcramer here.
I thought immediate dead ball and all runners return to bases held at time of infraction - except R1 on 1st who is forced to 2nd by B/R being awarded 1st base.R2 is out and R3 stays at 3rd. Is this right OR . . . . . . . is Sandiegosteve right?

UMP25 · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 18, 2006, 12:05pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
If the umpire judges that the runner intentionally allowed the batted ball to hit him, it becomes interference, and the rules governing interference trump 8-4-2(k).

Bases loaded as in original situation, ball hit toward short when R2 stops and intentionally lets the ball hit him. Interference: he's out, but you're not going to rule a DP interference here, at least not in NCAA and OBR, for there was no DP even being attempted, nor can one assume there would have been. This isn't quite the same as the F6 to F4 to F3 DP attempt where an illegal slide takes out F4.

UMP25 · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 18, 2006, 12:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by officialtony
I'm with cmcramer here.
I thought immediate dead ball and all runners return to bases held at time of infraction - except R1 on 1st who is forced to 2nd by B/R being awarded 1st base.R2 is out and R3 stays at 3rd. Is this right OR . . . . . . . is Sandiegosteve right?

That is correct. No runs score, everbody back to TOP base usually, except that the BR's being given first moves up R1 to second.

UMP25 · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 18, 2006, 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

A more severe penalty is proscribed for a batter-runner willfully and deliberately interfering with the fielding of a batted ball. In this case, the runner closest to home is called out, as well as the batter-runner. See Rule 7.09(h).

That's only when the BR intentionally interferes on a possible double play, not on every play per se.

UMP25 · #14 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 18, 2006, 07:05pm

Actually, it does make sense. When R2 is hit by the fair batted ball, it's interference and the ball is dead. But that leaves us to deal with the BR. He can't come back to bat since the ball was hit fair. He can't be declared out--he did nothing wrong. The logical thing to do is send him to first.* Now, since the ball is dead when it hits R2, no runners can advance; they must return to their TOP bases--R3 to third, R2's gone via the out, R1 to first, and the BR to first. But wait! We can't have two runners on the same base here; therefore, R1 is "pushed up," so to speak, to second by virtue of the BR being awarded first base.

My educated guess as to why the BR is given first is because R2's getting hit prevented the defense from a possible out. This out could have been made at first in a traditional F6 to F3 ground out, but the offense is penalized for taking away the defense's chance to get any out. Maybe they would have played on the runner who was hit. In that case, the BR would have made it to first anyway. So, in a nutshell, the runner who was hit is called out. BTW, if a runner intentionally interferes in this situation, the BR's being awarded first is scored as a fielder's choice and not a hit.

*What would you do here: Same situation--bases loaded with no outs and a 1-1 count on the batter when the batter hits a pop fly that drifts and remains foul near third. In his attempt to get back to third to not be doubled up there, R3 runs into F5, who drops the ball.

carldog · #15 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 18, 2006, 07:07pm

"Why advance some runners and send one back."

Well, others can certainly answer this question better than I can...but I think it has something to do with some runners are forced to advance by the BR taking first, and some are not forced.

Plus, I think that's what the rules say to do.