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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 27, 2006, 04:36pm
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OBSTRUCTION going into 2nd???

Ok here is the play, R1 on 1st stealing 2nd on the pitch. F6 covering the throw, comes down with his right knee 75% blocking 2nd base. When would you call obstruction??? Would F6 have to have the ball in his glove before he blockes the bag, Could he be in the act of catching the ball, would it make any difference where the throw came in ie close to the bag or near his right shoulder. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this. Rule 2.22.1 defines Obstruction High School rules
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Old Wed Dec 27, 2006, 07:03pm
DG DG is offline
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You might be wondering what the definition of an imminent play is. I read in one reference that if a ball is in flight and inside the cutout (a 13 foot diameter circle around any base, where we don't normally have grass growing) then that's a good rule of thumb. Unless R1 got a really great jump a play as described would almost always be an imminent one, if the pitch was in a good spot and the catcher is any good.

How did F6 get into this position to receive throw? It's a terrible position to be in.
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Old Wed Dec 27, 2006, 10:27pm
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while i agree that using reference points on the field can aid you in working, IMO your rule of thumb is giving you and the defense the crappy end of the stick. unless a 2 year old threw the ball, if it is in flight at the cutout it is going to be there instantaneously. furthermore, there is nothing written anywhere in the rules about the ball being in the cutout (i know you didn't say that, but hear me out) and if you get yourself in the mindset that that is what your guideline is going to be, then it may slip out in an argument that could result.

coach: he can't block the bag! he has to have the ball!
you: no he doesn't. the play was imminent.
coach: i'm not smart! what the he77 does imminent mean!?
you: the ball was inside the cutout.
coach: i used to umpire! i read the rules! it doesn't say anything about the cutout! you're making $hit up out here!

i would suggest using the terminology, "directly toward and near enough." it allows you more reach in ruling and in winning an argument. the rule doesn't define imminent which allows you some wiggle room. they use broad terms, you should use them, too.

coach: he can't block the bag! he has to have the ball!
you: no he doesn't. the play was imminent.
coach: i'm not smart! what the he77 does imminent mean!?
you: the ball was directly toward the fielder and near enough that he had the right to be there to make the play.

doesn't matter what he says from here, you've just turned his rule question into a judgment call question.
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Old Wed Dec 27, 2006, 11:41pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck
while i agree that using reference points on the field can aid you in working, IMO your rule of thumb is giving you and the defense the crappy end of the stick. unless a 2 year old threw the ball, if it is in flight at the cutout it is going to be there instantaneously. furthermore, there is nothing written anywhere in the rules about the ball being in the cutout (i know you didn't say that, but hear me out) and if you get yourself in the mindset that that is what your guideline is going to be, then it may slip out in an argument that could result.

coach: he can't block the bag! he has to have the ball!
you: no he doesn't. the play was imminent.
coach: i'm not smart! what the he77 does imminent mean!?
you: the ball was inside the cutout.
coach: i used to umpire! i read the rules! it doesn't say anything about the cutout! you're making $hit up out here!

i would suggest using the terminology, "directly toward and near enough." it allows you more reach in ruling and in winning an argument. the rule doesn't define imminent which allows you some wiggle room. they use broad terms, you should use them, too.

coach: he can't block the bag! he has to have the ball!
you: no he doesn't. the play was imminent.
coach: i'm not smart! what the he77 does imminent mean!?
you: the ball was directly toward the fielder and near enough that he had the right to be there to make the play.

doesn't matter what he says from here, you've just turned his rule question into a judgment call question.
If it is 50 feet away and thrown by a player who is even close to shaving age it will be there instantaneously (or imminently). The defense is not working the crappy end of the stick since they are not allowed to block the base unless the fielder is fielding a throw that is imminent. I just gave a rule of thumb I read. You use whatever you like, but good luck with the argument if the ball is 50 feet away.

I doubt it will slip out in an argument but if it does I don't have a problem defending it.

coach: he can't block the bag! he has to have the ball!
you: no he doesn't. the play was imminent.
coach: i'm not smart! what the he77 does imminent mean!?
you: to me it means the ball was in the cutout, and since this is an umpire judgement call I am sure you understand the call stands as called.

Last edited by DG; Wed Dec 27, 2006 at 11:48pm.
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Old Thu Dec 28, 2006, 07:33am
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Well this play has happened to me and yes F6 was covering the play and his right knee was blocking the bag, was it 75% who knows but he did block the runner from making his base. The ball thrown byF2 was right on the money knee high on the right side of the bag. When the coach came out to argue about blocking the base I told him that F6 went to the ball and made a good play. His response was that F6 must have the ball to block the base and my answer was Coach F6 went to the ball which was at the base and made a tag. Now I guess where the judgement comes into play is what if the throw came in on F6's right shoulder so he had to reach for the ball and was still blocking the base would this be obstruction. I believe it would. And for me the deciding factor would be did R1 slide into the glove or did he slide into F6's knee and then get tagged.
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Old Thu Dec 28, 2006, 11:27am
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so you just defined imminently, and then wished me luck in the situation? odd...

i'm not saying that 50 feet is what i'd go with, i was just saying that the cutout is rather close to begin your "protection" of the defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DG
If it is 50 feet away and thrown by a player who is even close to shaving age it will be there instantaneously (or imminently). The defense is not working the crappy end of the stick since they are not allowed to block the base unless the fielder is fielding a throw that is imminent. I just gave a rule of thumb I read. You use whatever you like, but good luck with the argument if the ball is 50 feet away.

I doubt it will slip out in an argument but if it does I don't have a problem defending it.

coach: he can't block the bag! he has to have the ball!
you: no he doesn't. the play was imminent.
coach: i'm not smart! what the he77 does imminent mean!?
you: to me it means the ball was in the cutout, and since this is an umpire judgement call I am sure you understand the call stands as called.
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Old Thu Dec 28, 2006, 08:15pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck
so you just defined imminently, and then wished me luck in the situation? odd...

i'm not saying that 50 feet is what i'd go with, i was just saying that the cutout is rather close to begin your "protection" of the defense.
I did not define imminently, I just told you what I read somewhere was a good rule of thumb. I wished you luck, with the argument that will come, if you decide 50' is close enough. So you think 50 feet may be too far, and I do too. You also think 13 is too close. I don't. You decide, you have 37 feet to play with, and then live with it when the coach comes out. It is best though, to have some pre-determination in mind when it happens.
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Old Fri Dec 29, 2006, 12:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim C
So why did you ask the question when you had already decided what the answer was?

I gave you the official ruling that the NFHS accepts.

You just went on my "ignore" list.

Regards,
Tim,
Wow didn't mean to tick you off. Tim your post was after both of mine when did you give me the answer allready??? I guess I wanted to hear other thoughts about the play.

Last edited by PFISTO; Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 12:25pm.
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Old Fri Dec 29, 2006, 02:42pm
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PFISTO
Ok here is the play, R1 on 1st stealing 2nd on the pitch. F6 covering the throw, comes down with his right knee 75% blocking 2nd base. When would you call obstruction??? Would F6 have to have the ball in his glove before he blockes the bag, Could he be in the act of catching the ball, would it make any difference where the throw came in ie close to the bag or near his right shoulder. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this. Rule 2.22.1 defines Obstruction High School rules
As others mentioned in FED the determination of OBS is "imminent"

Defintion of Imminent - About to occur.

RECOMMENDATION: Read a FED case Play on when F1 attemps a pickoff of R1 and F3 goes down on one knee.

Pete Booth
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Old Fri Dec 29, 2006, 10:53pm
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8.3.2 SITUATION G: F3, in taking a throw from F1 on a pickoff attempt, places his foot (or feet)
in front of the bag as he is attempting to catch the throw, which prevents R1 from getting back to
the base. RULING: F3 is considered to be in legal position if the play from the pitcher is imminent.
R1 is out.


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Old Sat Dec 30, 2006, 08:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck
coach: he can't block the bag! he has to have the ball!
NCAA (and, I think , LL) have the "ball must be in the glove" rule. I'm surprised FED hasn't adopted it.
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Old Sun Dec 31, 2006, 09:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim C
.

Example:

R3 attempting to score on a ball coming in from the outfield.

NCAA imminent = ball anywhere within the grass area of the infield.

Regards,
NCAA requires the fielder to be in possession of the baseball to block any base.
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