What would you do?

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Both the J/R and JEA interpret contrary to the written rule, which states that a batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base. These two sources usually like to put their own spin on the rulebook, and probably feel that this book rule is somehow in error.

Actually, J/R in the 2004 edition says in One Base Awards:
"...
(2) A base on balls.
....
The ball remains live and any runner who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base is out. However, the batter-runner is allowed to overrun first base, provided he returns immediately to the base."
So J/R in no way disagrees with MLBUM.

And as far as "own spin" goes, I only know of two situations in which J/R deviates from the rules as expiated in the the PBUC manual and the MLBUM. These involve the possibility of catching bounced pitch for a third strike, and interference on a runner being struck by a batted ball. Of course, JEA, J/R, PBUC, and MLBUM all deviate significantly from OBR.

[SanDiegoSteve]

My J/R is so outdated, J. R. Ewing hadn't gotten shot yet at the time of its publication.

[BigUmp56]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

In OBR there is already a precident that allows an umpire to reverse a call of TIME. I believe it happened this past year.

However, if F1 threw a lollipop to the plate then you disallow the HR and enforce the balk call, however, if F1 did not stop his motion or simply lob the ball across the plate, then in essence the players DID NOT React to the call of TIME and you can allow the play to stand.

IMO, the answer depends upon how F1 threw the ball to the plate after hearing TIME called. If in your judgement F1 threw the ball to the plate as if NO TIME had been called then allow the play to stand.

Also, as Dave said F1 will probably say that "he let-up" after hearing TIME called but what else do you expect him to say after giving up a gopher ball.

Either way the Umpire is going to "hear-it", however, if the players DID NOT React and if in your judgement F1 threw the ball like he normally would then allow the play to stand.

Pete Booth

Pete:

I think your interpretation is a little out there. I'm curious under what conditions a precedent was set in OBR to set aside the call of "time." I know there's been a precedent set to reverse the call of "foul."

I think it would make matters worse if we tried to BS our way through it by claiming how the ball was thrown to the plate and how the teams reacted to the call makes a difference.

Tim.

[DG]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

My J/R is so outdated, J. R. Ewing hadn't gotten shot yet at the time of its publication.

The first edition of J/R was printed in 1990. JR was shot in 1980.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by DG

The first edition of J/R was printed in 1990. JR was shot in 1980.

Yes, I realize this. I was joking. It just seems that out of date.

This is what my 1993 version says:

4. A runner (including the B/R) awarded a base due to a base on balls or detached gear (live ball awards) cannot be tagged out unless such runner passes his awarded base.

[Dave Reed]

Steve,
I can't resist pointing out that your quote from the 1993 J/R is entirely true and correct. It is what is meant by being awarded a base without liability to be put out. Perhaps there is some additional verbiage to justify the notion that the converse statement is true, even for B/R?

[Tim C]

The Honorable Dave Reed noted:

"And as far as "own spin" goes, I only know of two situations in which J/R deviates from the rules as expiated in the the PBUC manual and the MLBUM. These involve the possibility of catching bounced pitch for a third strike . . . "

Roder has changed his interpretation of the bounced pitch foul (tip) ball call after someone on this board (sorry can't remember who) sent him the link to the discussion.

Evans sent an e-mail to several of the posters on this site correcting Roder's information. Roder, to his credit, polled several MLB umpires to get a well rounded review of the issue before correcting his error.

Regards,

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Steve,
I can't resist pointing out that your quote from the 1993 J/R is entirely true and correct. It is what is meant by being awarded a base without liability to be put out. Perhaps there is some additional verbiage to justify the notion that the converse statement is true, even for B/R?

I'm not sure what you want.

I was posting this to show that J/R said that the B/R cannot overrun 1st base on a base on balls without being put in jeopardy of being tagged out. Apparently, Roder had changed his opinion on this at some point in time since 1993.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Actually, J/R in the 2004 edition says in One Base Awards:
"...
(2) A base on balls.
....
The ball remains live and any runner who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base is out. However, the batter-runner is allowed to overrun first base, provided he returns immediately to the base."
So J/R in no way disagrees with MLBUM.

In the same edition J/R says "a runner (including the batter-runner) awarded a base due to a base on balls or detached gear (live ball awards) cannont be tagged out unless such runner passes his awarded base with intent to advance." This agrees with what is written in the 2002 MLBUM.

Carl covers this in 2006 BRD, item 109.
FED: may not overrun the base. If he does, he is in peril of an out whether he feints or attempts an advance.
NCAA: may overrun first if he returns immediately, and does not make an attempt to go to second.
OBR: Same as NCAA. (7.08j; MLBUM 5.14-Note)

JEA has already been quoted here so it appears to me JEA offers the opposing viewpoint on this.

[PeteBooth]

Pete:

I think your interpretation is a little out there. I'm curious under what conditions a precedent was set in OBR to set aside the call of "time." I know there's been a precedent set to reverse the call of "foul."

I think it would make matters worse if we tried to BS our way through it by claiming how the ball was thrown to the plate and how the teams reacted to the call makes a difference.

Tim.

OBR 5.09
The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when --

(e) A foul ball is not caught; runners return.


Tim, we are talking semantics here. When an umpire calls FOUL for all practical purposes (other than a Fly ball that is FOUL), the ball is Immediately dead as when TIME is called.

This past year the Major League Umpires changed a FOUL call to FAIR (can't remember the game but I remember seeing the highlights on ESPN). Andy Konyar changed a FOUL call to FAIR in the LLWS.

Therefore, while the FOUL call was not preceded by the call of TIME , in the aforementioned instances the ball was immediately dead as if TIME had been called. The call was changed on the theory that the players did not react to the call of FOUL.

In your example, either way the Umpire is going to hear it. He/she BY RULE and PRECEDENT as in the aforementioned examples can award the game ending HR to the batter.

In a nutshell it's a grey situation as the Umpire can say that TIME was called hence No HR allowed an enforce the balk or he/she could rule that even though TIME was called, the players reacted as if NO Time had been called and allow the play to stand.

As mentioned the umpire is going to take heat either way EXCEPT in a FED game in which case the ball became immediately dead as soon as F1 committed the balk.

Pete Booth

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I'm not sure what you want.

I was posting this to show that J/R said that the B/R cannot overrun 1st base on a base on balls without being put in jeopardy of being tagged out. Apparently, Roder had changed his opinion on this at some point in time since 1993.

I also found this tidbit from the Awards chapter in the same edition. It also seems to disfavor any overrunning 1st base on bases on balls:

Chapter 7: One Base Awards
(2) A base on balls.
A batter is awarded first base when four balls are counted. Sequential runners are also awarded their advance base. The ball remains live and any runner (including the B-R) who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base, is out.

[umpbrianc]

By not making a call we as umpires put the runner in jeopardy. As always unless you have an out it is safe. The runner missing the bag is always an appeal play and to be called safe unless properly appealed.
There is nothing worse than the "no call" we can make. Always make a call, if you don't have an out it is safe.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by umpbrianc

By not making a call we as umpires put the runner in jeopardy. As always unless you have an out it is safe. The runner missing the bag is always an appeal play and to be called safe unless properly appealed.
There is nothing worse than the "no call" we can make. Always make a call, if you don't have an out it is safe.

I don't believe "we" put the runner in jeopardy. If he doesn't know what the call is, he can return to the base. Besides, he's probably not looking over his
shoulder to see a safe signal, and it is his responsibility to touch the bag.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by umpduck11

I don't believe "we" put the runner in jeopardy. If he doesn't know what the call is, he can return to the base. Besides, he's probably not looking over his
shoulder to see a safe signal, and it is his responsibility to touch the bag.

I think what he's trying to say is that we alert the defense of a possible appeal by signaling nothing. That makes us the 10th man on defense and puts the runner at a disadvantage.


Tim.

[a1umpire]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Lets say that you're working an OBR game. You have R1 and R3. It's the bottom of the last inning with two outs. Home team is down by two runs. F1 while in his motion hangs his knee and pauses before he delivers the pitch. Now, instead of using proper mechanics for a balk you first point to the pitcher and proclaim "time that's a balk." F1 delivers the ball to the plate where the batter takes it out of the park to deep center. Do you wait to see if the defense complains that you killed the ball before you disallow the runs and try to hide from your error, or do you eat it and end up dumping the offensive coach?


Tim.

according to OBR rules it is a delay dead ball and is not inforced if all runners including the batterrunner advanc atleast one base,therefore it ruled a homerun