What would you do?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by BigTex

Please see post #7

Please see posts #9 and #12.

Tim.

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Please see posts #9 and #12.

Tim.

#12 is exactly what I paraphrased in #7.

[SAump]

Post 12 alone in 2 previous posts should read 12/13.
I hope this helps.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BigTex

You may be right. I am sure somebody will come along and tell both of us how they are friends with several major and minor league guys and they are going to call one of these friends and have the correct answer to us shortly.

I'm not going to call any of my buddies, but I have always been taught that the "Safe, he's off the base" call is only used when both the fielder is off the base, and the runner touches first base.

I do believe that Tim's (both) interpretations are correct for when the runner and fielder both miss the base. In this case, a casual, or weak, "Safe" signal with no verbalization indicates that the runner has acquired the base, but does not tip off either team to any infraction. That is my understanding of this mechanic.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I'm not going to call any of my buddies, but I have always been taught that the "Safe, he's off the base" call is only used when both the fielder is off the base, and the runner touches first base.

I do believe that Tim's (both) interpretations are correct for when the runner and fielder both miss the base. In this case, a casual, or weak, "Safe" signal with no verbalization indicates that the runner has acquired the base, but does not tip off either team to any infraction. That is my understanding of this mechanic.

Question:

Let's say that the ball, poorly thrown, beats the BR but F3 has pulled his foot. The BR's stride takes him over the bag without touching it. You give a weak safe signal with no verbal indication of the pulled foot. The coach sees the ball beat the BR but doesn't see the pulled foot or the missed base. He also sees your weak safe signal and figures that you just missed a call (your unusually weak safe signal helped him). Are you saying that you wait until the coach reaches your position to explain to him that F3 pulled his foot?

I was always taught differently.....but I've never been to one of Jim's clinics.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Justme

Are you saying that you wait until the coach reaches your position to explain to him that F1 pulled his foot?

No, but I will wait until either F3 touches the base or the runner, or the runner returns safely to first, before I say anything. If F3 knows he was off the base, he can explain it to his coach. If the runner knows he missed first, he's going to try and get back before the base or he is tagged. None of this should take very long, and I don't know too many coaches that can make it out there before the situation takes care of itself.

Of course, I've never seen a runner stupid enough to miss first base, and F3 to be off the base, on the same play.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

Just out of curiosity, what call would you make if the runner was two steps on the home plate side of first and you had no idea he would run through first without touching?

I never make a call on a runner at first until he is well past the base. Why would anyone make a call while he is still running to first?

[D-Man]

So...
The moral of this story is don't F-up!

Fine.

How 'bout some PM. Train your Fed. umpires to change their balk mechanic to "that's a balk...Time!" instead of the other way around. Yeah, they can still botch up and keep the Time call at the end in their OBR games too, but they will at least have that half second or two to think it over.

I mean, in Fed. ball no matter what you say in any order, a balk, by rule, is a dead ball. Call it the OBR way and save (your tail).

D

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by Justme

Question:

Let's say that the ball, poorly thrown, beats the BR but F3 has pulled his foot. The BR's stride takes him over the bag without touching it. You give a weak safe signal with no verbal indication of the pulled foot. The coach sees the ball beat the BR but doesn't see the pulled foot or the missed base. He also sees your weak safe signal and figures that you just missed a call (your unusually weak safe signal helped him). Are you saying that you wait until the coach reaches your position to explain to him that F1 pulled his foot?

I was always taught differently.....but I've never been to one of Jim's clinics.

I agree with you that the "weak safe signal" technique is fraught with faulty logic.

If it is an umpire's objective to not do anything to call attention to a missed base - and it is - then the mechanic for the given situation should be EXACTLY the same mechanic whether the batter runner touches the base or misses the base. That's Logic 101.

I would be surprised to learn that Jim Evans is teaching anything different.

[LMan]

Agreed, and if you don't at least give the sweeping motion for 'off the bag' you will agin invite dispute as the throw clearly beat the runner.

I would be inclined to a normal 'safe! off the bag!' and let it develop. If the runner acquired the bag, he acquired the bag. He's as safe as if he stepped on the bag until/unless he's appealed.

[german ump]

Originally Posted by BigTex

The correct call here should have been "SAFE, OFF THE BAG!" Once the BR has passed first base, he has "acquired" it. He is then subject to be out on appeal.

Once the base runner has touched first base he has "acquired" it or is there a new rule. I'm a high school umpire and we were tought that you actually have to touch the bag. tibear actually said the batter/runner "...ran over the bag but NEVER touched the bag". That would not give him possesion of first base. When he abandons the base he is called out.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by german ump

Once the base runner has touched first base he has "acquired" it or is there a new rule. I'm a high school umpire and we were tought that you actually have to touch the bag. tibear actually said the batter/runner "...ran over the bag but NEVER touched the bag". That would not give him possesion of first base. When he abandons the base he is called out.

No, when the BR passes 1B he is considered to have 'acquired' the base and the defense is required to appeal the missed base.

BUT

FED still has the 'accidental' appeal in effect for this situation (at first base only):

2006 NFHS Case Book
Page 65
8.2.3 Situation:
B1 hits a slow roller to F5 and arrives safely but misses first base. F3 catches the ball with his foot off the base and casually steps on first base, though he believes the runner has beaten the throw.

RULING:
B1 is out. Because a force play is being made on the runner and is the result of continuing action, F3 is required to appeal the missed base and does so by stepping on the missed base.

Notice the first sentence says "arrives safely but misses first base" and the last sentence "F3 is required to appeal the missed base"

I believe I'm correct is saying that other rule sets (e.g. OBR/NCAA) do not have the 'accidental' appeal.

[Tim C]

Not sure why anyone would question what Evans teaches:

I do believe, now, that my recollections of what Evans said while in Portland last spring is as reported:

I do not think anyone asked Evans directly if you give the "off the bag" verbal or physical signal. My recollection is that he told us to give a simple "safe" sign (and honest I don't remember if anyone tried to do a signal or verbal).

The "declaration" comment from Evans was explained as a "safe" call and not "off the bag" -- however all of this is coming from my memory which could be faulty.

"Justme": According to Elliot that play referenced is in error and will be eliminated in the near future.

Regards,

[MadCityRef]

Give the proper safe signal. Then, if D appeals, "Out. He missed the bag."

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"Justme": According to Elliot that play referenced is in error and will be eliminated in the near future.

Regards,

I hope so, never liked 'accidental' appeals