What would you do?

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by german ump

Once the base runner has touched first base he has "acquired" it or is there a new rule. I'm a high school umpire and we were tought that you actually have to touch the bag. tibear actually said the batter/runner "...ran over the bag but NEVER touched the bag". That would not give him possesion of first base. When he abandons the base he is called out.

Suppose the batter-runner is legging out a double. As he rounds first, he fails
to touch the bag, and continues on to second base. Would you do anything
other than wait for an appeal from the defense ? Running "through" the bag
at first, and failing to make contact would not be any different. If there is no
appeal, there is nothing to call, the batter-runner has acquired first base.

[DG]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Another point, the runner is not abandoning a base if he returns to it. If he gets back to the base before the defense can appeal, then he is safe. It is only abandonment when the runner gets to the dugout or DBT.

In FED you should call a BR out who has passed (acquired) 1B if you judge he is heading for the dugout or his defensive position with no intent to return.

[BigUmp56]

Under OBR this is an interpretation where Evans and Roder appear to disagree. Roder's claim is that you can call a runner out for abandonment as soon as you feel he's progressed a "reasonable distance" toward his dugout or defensive position while indicating no intent to reassert his status as a runner.

J/R

Any runner (including the batter-runner) is out when:

A runner who discontinues his advance or return to a base, progresses a reasonable distance toward his dugout or defensive position, and indicates no intent to reassert his status as a runner, has abandoned his effort to run the bases. The cause of his actions (e.g., ignorance or apathy) is irrelevant.


Evans says this:


Common sense dictates that the only logical reason a player would abandon 1st base after overrunning it would be because he thought he had been declared out by the umpire. The player should not be penalized for an umpire's improper signaling or incorrect mechanic. Therefore, the runner should not be automatically called out if he temporarily leaves the extended basepath. A player who leaves the infield area abandoning the base paths between 1st base and 3rd base may be declared out once he leaves fair territory. If a play is being made on him, however, he is subject to the guidelines established in 7.08(a.1)...he must be advancing toward a base and cannot go more than three feet out of his direct line to avoid a tag. A runner who leaves 3rd base for any reason is not out until he enters a dugout when no play is being made on him. He shall be declared out for abandoning the base paths if a play is being made on him and (1) he is not making a bona fide effort to reach home plate or return to 3rd; or (2) he runs more than three feet out of his direct line to avoid a tag. A batter-runner who inexplicably fails to return directly to 1st base after overrunning it shall not be called out before entering the dugout. If he failed to touch the base, he is subject to an appeal play. He can be retired by the defensive team either tagging him or the missed base and making a proper appeal. In trying to get back to 1st base after missing it, the batter-runner must make a legitimate effort to proceed directly to the base. Any circuitous or evasive running which the umpire determines not to be an immediate attempt to reach 1st base shall be grounds for declaring the batter-runner out.



Tim.

[Tim C]

I, for one, will always follow Evans AS Roder is a nobody that has just tried to steal Evans's research.

T

[Dave Hensley]

Wow.......

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I, for one, will always follow Evans AS Roder is a nobody that has just tried to steal Evans's research.

T

Tee:

It's my understanding that the WUA now referrs all rules questions to Rick Roder for clarification.


FWIW.

Tim.

[DG]

Therefore, a good solid safe signal removes the only common sense reason BR would think he has been called out.

[Tim C]

I recognize that Roder is the union interpreter of rules.

Regards,

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I recognize that Roder is the union interpreter of rules.

Regards,

I'd be interested to know how they work out whose opinion is most authoritative in other situations where Roder and Evans differ, Tim. For example, if I'm not mistaken, Roder claims a batter-runner cannot overrun first on a base on balls award without putting himself in jeapordy. Evans on the other hand says that he may overrun first on the award without being put in jeapordy unless he makes an attempt at second.


Tim.

[Tim C]

Mr. Hensley wrote:

"Wow......."

Dave I agree. What I should have written was:

"It appears, at first blush, that Mr. Roder has used the extensive research of Jim Evans AND Carl Childress to his advantage in his writings."

Even a liberal Texas Democrat couldn't find fault with that.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I'd be interested to know how they work out whose opinion is most authoritative in other situations where Roder and Evans differ, Tim. For example, if I'm not mistaken, Roder claims a batter-runner cannot overrun first on a base on balls award without putting himself in jeapordy. Evans on the other hand says that he may overrun first on the award without being put in jeapordy unless he makes an attempt at second.


Tim.

I'm not familiar with Roder's position(s) on this question, but Evans in the JEA rules the opposite of what youv'e stated - he says a batter runner may NOT overrun 1B on a base on balls without liability. The MLB Umpire Manual, circa 2001, incorporated the contrary interpretation, that the batter runner may overrun on a base on balls without liability to be put out.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

I'm not familiar with Roder's position(s) on this question, but Evans in the JEA rules the opposite of what youv'e stated - he says a batter runner may NOT overrun 1B on a base on balls without liability. The MLB Umpire Manual, circa 2001, incorporated the contrary interpretation, that the batter runner may overrun on a base on balls without liability to be put out.

Both the J/R and JEA interpret contrary to the written rule, which states that a batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base. These two sources usually like to put their own spin on the rulebook, and probably feel that this book rule is somehow in error.

The MLBUM (in this case, the 2002 edition) interprets the rule as written:

NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(c)(EXCEPTION), 7.08(j), and 7.10(c).)

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

I'm not familiar with Roder's position(s) on this question, but Evans in the JEA rules the opposite of what youv'e stated - he says a batter runner may NOT overrun 1B on a base on balls without liability. The MLB Umpire Manual, circa 2001, incorporated the contrary interpretation, that the batter runner may overrun on a base on balls without liability to be put out.

Dave:


This is all I find in the JEA on the matter.

Professional Interpretation: Though the batter is awarded first base without liability to be put out, he does incur responsibilities: (1) He must advance to and touch the awarded base or become liable to be declared out...see 4.09(b). (2) He becomes liable to be put out if he attempts to advance after missing the awarded base. (3) He should advance to and touch his awarded base before a substitute is allowed to take his place, unless he is being replaced because of an injury or illness...see Customs and Usage.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Dave:


This is all I find in the JEA on the matter.

Professional Interpretation: Though the batter is awarded first base without liability to be put out, he does incur responsibilities: (1) He must advance to and touch the awarded base or become liable to be declared out...see 4.09(b). (2) He becomes liable to be put out if he attempts to advance after missing the awarded base. (3) He should advance to and touch his awarded base before a substitute is allowed to take his place, unless he is being replaced because of an injury or illness...see Customs and Usage.


Tim.

Tim, this is under 7.08(c), Professional Interpretation, of the JEA:

A batter who is entitled to 1st base because of "four balls" being called may not overrun or overslide 1st base. This is an award which is administered while the ball is alive and in play. He is entitled to 1st base without liability to be put out...6.08(a). His liability to be put out resumes once he touches the base.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Lets say that you're working an OBR game. You have R1 and R3. It's the bottom of the last inning with two outs. Home team is down by two runs. F1 while in his motion hangs his knee and pauses before he delivers the pitch. Now, instead of using proper mechanics for a balk you first point to the pitcher and proclaim "time that's a balk." F1 delivers the ball to the plate where the batter takes it out of the park to deep center. Do you wait to see if the defense complains that you killed the ball before you disallow the runs and try to hide from your error, or do you eat it and end up dumping the offensive coach?

In OBR there is already a precident that allows an umpire to reverse a call of TIME. I believe it happened this past year.

However, if F1 threw a lollipop to the plate then you disallow the HR and enforce the balk call, however, if F1 did not stop his motion or simply lob the ball across the plate, then in essence the players DID NOT React to the call of TIME and you can allow the play to stand.

IMO, the answer depends upon how F1 threw the ball to the plate after hearing TIME called. If in your judgement F1 threw the ball to the plate as if NO TIME had been called then allow the play to stand.

Also, as Dave said F1 will probably say that "he let-up" after hearing TIME called but what else do you expect him to say after giving up a gopher ball.

Either way the Umpire is going to "hear-it", however, if the players DID NOT React and if in your judgement F1 threw the ball like he normally would then allow the play to stand.

Pete Booth