Balk question

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ToGreySt

both times he caught the runner, however I called a balk in situation B. saying that he didn't break his hands once he disengaged from the rubber.

It's a balk, but not for not breaking the hands. Both A and B are balks for starting the motion and not completing the pitch.

[ToGreySt]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's a balk, but not for not breaking the hands. Both A and B are balks for starting the motion and not completing the pitch.

if that's the case, then isn't B legal? his first motion was to step off the rubber, then he raised his hands over his head

Joe

[Delaware Blue]

Originally Posted by ToGreySt

if that's the case, then isn't B legal? his first motion was to step off the rubber, then he raised his hands over his head

Joe

No, B is not legal. Raising his hands over his head is a motion normally associated with the windup. Since he disengaged the pitcher's plate, he made that motion while not in contact with the pitcher's plate. That's a balk.

Originally Posted by tibear

According to rule 8.01, the pitcher MUST separate his hands as he disengages the rubber.

The rule is written so it appears to require that the hands separate as F1 steps off, that is not the intent of the rule. F1 must drop his hands at some point before re-engaging the pitcher's plate, but he does not have to do so as he steps off.

[tibear]

Delaware,

Here is even more the rulebook:

Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.
Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.
Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.
Pitchers will not be allowed to disengage the rubber after taking each sign.
(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.
When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.
Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his “free” foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.

I don't know what could be more clear. If the pitcher disengages the rubber he MUST separate his hands other wise it is a balk. Where do you see something other than that?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by tibear

Delaware,

Here is even more the rulebook:

Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.
Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.
Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.
Pitchers will not be allowed to disengage the rubber after taking each sign.
(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.
When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.
Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his “free” foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.

I don't know what could be more clear. If the pitcher disengages the rubber he MUST separate his hands other wise it is a balk. Where do you see something other than that?

tibear:

There are over 200 mistakes in the rulebook. Until we get a major rewrite, he need to consider how the rules are applied by those who own them. The JEA, J/R, the WUA and both pro schools all agree that the intent of the rule is that the pitcher must separate his hands prior to retaking the rubber.

Tell me, do you make a runner stay within 3 feet of a direct line bewteen the bases? That's what the rule says, but again, that is not how it is interpreted or enforced.

Different posters have given you the correct information. You now have the opportunity to learn something and choose to umpire a basegame as it is intended to be done, or not.

[tibear]

Interesting on how in this case, I'm getting a hard time for trying to apply the rules as written in the rulebook and in other cases was given a hard time for calling the "spirit" of the rule.

I will let you know that around here, if you disengage the rubber without separating your hands, everyone calls a balk! Everyone may be taught incorrectly but we try to follow the rulebook and in this case, if you are indeed stepping off the rubber the assumption is that you're not trying to "pick-off" the runner so why not enforce the pitcher's hands? Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage? Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by tibear

Interesting on how in this case, I'm getting a hard time for trying to apply the rules as written in the rulebook and in other cases was given a hard time for calling the "spirit" of the rule.

The only time I've seen anyone crticized for calling by the "intention of the rule" is when they are mistaken on the intention of the rule.

I will let you know that around here, if you disengage the rubber without separating your hands, everyone calls a balk!

Where is "around here?"

Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage? Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

1. No.
2. No.
3. No.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by tibear

I will let you know that around here, if you disengage the rubber without separating your hands, everyone calls a balk! Everyone may be taught incorrectly but we try to follow the rulebook and in this case, if you are indeed stepping off the rubber the assumption is that you're not trying to "pick-off" the runner so why not enforce the pitcher's hands? Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage? Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

If you need solid proof that the experienced members of this board are giving you the correct interpretation that this is not a balk, this may help. This is the professional interpretation as written by Rick Roder who is the co-author of the Jaska/Roder Manual. The WUA now referrs all rules questions to Rick for clarification.

Pitchers

a) must take signs from the catcher while in contact.

b) cannot habitually disengage the rubber after taking a sign,

c) upon disengaging, must separate their hands.


No penalty is mandated or suggested for violation of (a) through (c). Such action is simply prohibited.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by tibear

Everyone may be taught incorrectly but we try to follow the rulebook and in this case, if you are indeed stepping off the rubber the assumption is that you're not trying to "pick-off" the runner so why not enforce the pitcher's hands?

I don't assume that the pitcher is not going to try to pick the runner off base when the pitcher steps off. On the contrary, I'm especially vigilant for a pick-off move when this occurs.

Originally Posted by tibear

Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage?

No, a balk is called because the pitcher does something which he is prohibited from doing, with the intent to illegally deceive the runner. There is always deception and trickery afoot when it comes to keeping runners from stealing bases, but only the illegal deception is penalized.

Originally Posted by tibear

Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

No, the rule book says to separate the hands to ensure the pitcher doesn't get back on the rubber with his hands still together for the purposes of a quick pitch. It is perfectly legal to step off the rubber with the pivot foot, then immediately throw to a base. No separation of hands is required. The pitcher becomes equal to a fielder when he disengages the rubber properly. He is only prohibited from simulating a pitch to the plate, as has been pointed out.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by tibear

Interesting on how in this case, I'm getting a hard time for trying to apply the rules as written in the rulebook and in other cases was given a hard time for calling the "spirit" of the rule.

I will let you know that around here, if you disengage the rubber without separating your hands, everyone calls a balk! Everyone may be taught incorrectly but we try to follow the rulebook and in this case, if you are indeed stepping off the rubber the assumption is that you're not trying to "pick-off" the runner so why not enforce the pitcher's hands? Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage? Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

1) Yes, the rule says the pitcher must drop his hands.

2) No, the rule does not say when, so the interpretation used is "before re-engaging".

3) How can the pitcher throw to a base without first separating his hands?

[Delaware Blue]

Originally Posted by tibear

If the pitcher disengages the rubber he MUST separate his hands other wise it is a balk. Where do you see something other than that?

Yes, F1 must separate his hands, but he is not required to do so as he disengages. As Mr. Jenkins said, the pitcher must drop his hands before re-engaging the pitcher's plate. Even if F1 fails to drop his hands before re-engaging, it's not a balk. It's a prohibited action and there is no penalty. You just call time and tell the pitcher to step off and drop his hands.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ToGreySt

if that's the case, then isn't B legal? his first motion was to step off the rubber, then he raised his hands over his head

Joe

In the OP, you wrote "stepping off with wrong foot". I assumed that meant the left foot (for a RHP). If so, that's the start of a motion, and a balk. If F1 stepped off with the pivot foot, then the step off is legal, but raising the hands over the head becomes part of the motion, and is a balk.

[ToGreySt]

sorry I was confusing in the OP, I meant stepping off with the wrong foot to start the motion, not the wrong foot to disengage the runner

Joe