Balk question

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by tibear

bob,

According to OBR:

Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.

According to rule 8.01, the pitcher MUST separate his hands as he disengages the rubber.

That's not a correct interpretation. Bob is correct, and is supported by multiple references in the authoritative literature.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by tibear

I will let you know that around here, if you disengage the rubber without separating your hands, everyone calls a balk! Everyone may be taught incorrectly but we try to follow the rulebook and in this case, if you are indeed stepping off the rubber the assumption is that you're not trying to "pick-off" the runner so why not enforce the pitcher's hands? Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage? Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

If you need solid proof that the experienced members of this board are giving you the correct interpretation that this is not a balk, this may help. This is the professional interpretation as written by Rick Roder who is the co-author of the Jaska/Roder Manual. The WUA now referrs all rules questions to Rick for clarification.

Pitchers

a) must take signs from the catcher while in contact.

b) cannot habitually disengage the rubber after taking a sign,

c) upon disengaging, must separate their hands.


No penalty is mandated or suggested for violation of (a) through (c). Such action is simply prohibited.


Tim.

[GarthB]

MLB, the entity that hires members of the WUA and the owners of the rules, takes it further by not just saying don't penalize it, but that it is not a balk as long as the hands are separated prior to the pitcher re-taking the rubber.

The confusion is understandable given MLB's seeming inability to get a re-write of the rules done. However, members of the rules committe have committed to get it done, piece-meal, if necessary. One member told Evans that he hope to eventually address all the mistakes that Jim had identified.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by tibear

Everyone may be taught incorrectly but we try to follow the rulebook and in this case, if you are indeed stepping off the rubber the assumption is that you're not trying to "pick-off" the runner so why not enforce the pitcher's hands?

I don't assume that the pitcher is not going to try to pick the runner off base when the pitcher steps off. On the contrary, I'm especially vigilant for a pick-off move when this occurs.

Originally Posted by tibear

Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage?

No, a balk is called because the pitcher does something which he is prohibited from doing, with the intent to illegally deceive the runner. There is always deception and trickery afoot when it comes to keeping runners from stealing bases, but only the illegal deception is penalized.

Originally Posted by tibear

Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

No, the rule book says to separate the hands to ensure the pitcher doesn't get back on the rubber with his hands still together for the purposes of a quick pitch. It is perfectly legal to step off the rubber with the pivot foot, then immediately throw to a base. No separation of hands is required. The pitcher becomes equal to a fielder when he disengages the rubber properly. He is only prohibited from simulating a pitch to the plate, as has been pointed out.

[bossman72]

tibear,

It's great you're getting your nose in the rulebook and trying to understand fully what it says. But, as mentioned before, there are over 200 errors in the MLB rulebook.

When posters like bobjenkins and GarthB give you advice, TAKE THE MEDICINE. They know what they're talking about.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by tibear

bob,

According to OBR:

Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.

According to rule 8.01, the pitcher MUST separate his hands as he disengages the rubber.

Wrong! You are quoting a case book comment that has an interpretation in the MLBUM (You can only get one from a MLB umpire). Bob is 100% in his telling you that the only time F1 has to break his hands before he steps back on the rubber. Oh yes, this is not a balk either - it's another one of those "don't do that" things. And while we are at it, stepping off with the wrong foot is also not a balk! It's just a violation with no penalty.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

Also the way the OBR rule has always read to me, from the wind position the pitcher cannot have any of his non-pivot behind the rubber before he starts his motion. Don't they use that imaginary line of the back edge of the rubber for placement purposes? Now technically wouldn't there be grounds for a balk if the pitcher stepped off legally with his pivot foot, but his non-pivot foot was already behind the rubber?

A pitcher is not restricted from placing his non-pivot behind the rubber while in the windup.

OBR 8.01 Legal Pitching Delivery

9) In the Windup position, the pitcher’s free foot may be on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber, or off to the side of the rubber.

Originally Posted by PWL

I had a situation like this in a game I was playing in a couple of years ago. FWIW, the non-pivot was mostly behind the rubber. The pitcher stepped on the mound with his pivot foot and then barely on with his non-pivot foot. He then stepped back and threw to first from the wind position. I argued for all it's worth that it was balk, but they said it was legal in our rule set. Whatever, that was?

Why was it a balk? Did he step back with the free foot or the pivot foot? Did he simulate his initial motion to pitch as he disengaged?


Tim.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

I do believe you are quoting a new rule that went into effect only a few months ago. I was asking if it woud be a balk under the old way it was written in the rule book.

The rule is essentially the same. The only change is that the pitcher no longer has to keep his free foot within the 24 inch length of the pitching rubber, which was never enforced anyway. It's never been a balk for placing the free foot behind the rubber while in the windup.


Tim.

[tibear]

Well, since everyone here is so ademant that this shouldn't be called a balk, I guess I'm going to have to go back to our local administration and get them to look into it. As I say, around here everyone calls it a balk. I've personally called it only once or twice but other guys call this maybe a dozen times a year.

Its going to be a hard sell because its pretty obvious that the OBR rulebook says the pitcher MUST seperate his hands as he steps off the rubber.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tibear

Its going to be a hard sell because its pretty obvious that the OBR rulebook says the pitcher MUST seperate his hands as he steps off the rubber.

Items to help your discussion with your board:

1) The rule doesn't say "as" he steps off, it says "when" (meaning "after") he steps off.

2) There's no penalty specified in this comment or in this rule for failing to do so.

3) Almost all the balks are specified in 8.05. The rule in question is in 8.01

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by tibear

Interesting on how in this case, I'm getting a hard time for trying to apply the rules as written in the rulebook and in other cases was given a hard time for calling the "spirit" of the rule.

I will let you know that around here, if you disengage the rubber without separating your hands, everyone calls a balk! Everyone may be taught incorrectly but we try to follow the rulebook and in this case, if you are indeed stepping off the rubber the assumption is that you're not trying to "pick-off" the runner so why not enforce the pitcher's hands? Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage? Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

1) Yes, the rule says the pitcher must drop his hands.

2) No, the rule does not say when, so the interpretation used is "before re-engaging".

3) How can the pitcher throw to a base without first separating his hands?

[tibear]

Rich,

The rules states the pitcher must drop his hands to his sides, so I guess the phrase "separate his hands" is incorrect.

Around here if the pitcher steps off and throws directly to a base without dropping his hands to his side first, we call it a balk. As indicated, I guess we're going to have to re-evaluate this but I can hear everyone now, "That's not what the rulebook says and the pitcher does it to deceive the runner, so it's a balk".

I'll have to try the "show me in 8.05 where it would be a balk".

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by tibear

Rich,

The rules states the pitcher must drop his hands to his sides, so I guess the phrase "separate his hands" is incorrect.

Around here if the pitcher steps off and throws directly to a base without dropping his hands to his side first, we call it a balk. As indicated, I guess we're going to have to re-evaluate this but I can here everyone now, "That's not what the rulebook says and the pitcher does it to deceive the runner, so it's a balk".

I'll have to try the "show me in 8.05 where it would be a balk".

That ["show me in the Rule ..."] is EXACTLY what you should be saying. Lots of guys who "know" the Rules but do not regularly READ them freqently can be heard to intone "F1 did it to deceive ..." thus making the act, in their minds, a balk. Anytime I hear someone use "deception" as a rationale for calling a balk, I start from a presumption that they are wrong [there was no balk].

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by PWL

FED is somewhat different as the pitcher must step off legally with both feet before he separates his hands. In other words, pivot foot, non-pivot foot, separate hands.

OK, I'm willing to be wrong on this one, but HUH?

Once he steps off with the PIVOT foot, since when do I care what he does with either his other foot OR his hands [as long as he's not simulating a pitching motion]?

Bob- help me out here, have I missed a memo or something?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by cbfoulds

OK, I'm willing to be wrong on this one, but HUH?

Once he steps off with the PIVOT foot, since when do I care what he does with either his other foot OR his hands [as long as he's not simulating a pitching motion]?

Bob- help me out here, have I missed a memo or something?

I don't think you've missed anything. I think PWL is wrong on this.