check swing??

[zanzibar]

What does the rule state that the umpires use to determine whether the batter has gone around on his swing? Is it the same in the majors as the NF?

[UmpJM]

zanzibar,

The rules (both FED and OBR) are curiously mute regarding the criteria an umpire should use to judge whether an aborted swing attempt constitutes an offer.

Ultimately, the umpire uses his own judgement to determine whether or not the aborted swing constitutes an "offer".

JM

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

zanzibar,

The rules (both FED and OBR) are curiously mute regarding the criteria an umpire should use to judge whether an aborted swing attempt constitutes an offer.

Ultimately, the umpire uses his own judgement to determine whether or not the aborted swing constitutes an "offer".

JM

John, I agree with your assessment that the rules are mute concerning criteria, but I disagree that this omission is "curious." In fact, it's to be expected once one realizes how many different types of swing there are.

Moreover, for each of the virtually infinite variety of swings, there is a wide variety of ways to check it.

Multiply these possibilities, and you arrive at a combinatorial explosion of potential criteria. Criteria, remember, must be necessary and sufficient conditions of an offer, so to provide criteria we would have to cover every case of swinging AND every case of checking.

So, we say instead: if the batter offered, it's a strike.

What about rough guidelines? Did the bat head cross the plate? Did the batter "break his wrists"? (Ouch!) Professional instruction is to avoid using any such guidelines, and simply to judge whether the batter offered at the pitch.

We know what a swinging strike is, and we know what a "take" is: if the half swing was more like a swinging strike than a take, then it's a strike. That's about as close to a "rough guideline" as you'll get.

[David B]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

zanzibar,

The rules (both FED and OBR) are curiously mute regarding the criteria an umpire should use to judge whether an aborted swing attempt constitutes an offer.

Ultimately, the umpire uses his own judgement to determine whether or not the aborted swing constitutes an "offer".

JM

What coach said is the basic element that the umpire has to use.

In looking at my books there are a few guidelines:

FED - If the batter carreis the barrel of the bat past his body, but final decision is "whether the batter struck at the ball"

NCAA - they list if barrel of bat crosses a) front edge of the plate or b) the batters front hip (of course these don't apply if batter is in front of the box through)

OBR - nothing else

I believe its Evans who added that just because the barrel of the bat breaks the plane of the plate that its to be ruled a strike.

Thanks
David

[kylejt]

The word "offer" keeps popping up. Anyone care to offer a definition of that term?

I've been taught this simple phrase "did he attempt to strike at the pitched ball?"

Using the plate as a gauge doesn't seem logical. The batters size, position in the box, and length of bat shouldn't have any say in this determination.

[GoodwillRef]

There was a check swing last night last night that Wally Bell called a strike on the Cardinals second baseman, did you guys think he offered? I think it was in the 7th or 8th inning.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by kylejt

The word "offer" keeps popping up. Anyone care to offer a definition of that term?

I've been taught this simple phrase "did he attempt to strike at the pitched ball?"

Using the plate as a gauge doesn't seem logical. The batters size, position in the box, and length of bat shouldn't have any say in this determination.

The term "offer" means - did he attempt to strike at the pitched ball? It's just easier to say.

[DG]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

There was a check swing last night last night that Wally Bell called a strike on the Cardinals second baseman, did you guys think he offered? I think it was in the 7th or 8th inning.

If this is the one I recall, the batter clearly did not try to strike the pitch from the position the bat was held, but he clearly carried the bat all the way through the strike zone, and then some, so it was called a strike. This is the one where it barely left his shoulder but he spun completely around with it, hands in tight agains his chest.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

zanzibar,

The rules (both FED and OBR) are curiously mute regarding the criteria an umpire should use to judge whether an aborted swing attempt constitutes an offer.

Ultimately, the umpire uses his own judgement to determine whether or not the aborted swing constitutes an "offer".

JM

Evans will cover this in one of the classroom sessions at the Classic. He has an interesting viewpoint that takes the movement of the batters upper body into consideration alonf with the bat. I don't have my notes with me right now, but it's something along the lines of watching to see if the torso "uncoils".

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by DG

If this is the one I recall, the batter clearly did not try to strike the pitch from the position the bat was held, but he clearly carried the bat all the way through the strike zone, and then some, so it was called a strike. This is the one where it barely left his shoulder but he spun completely around with it, hands in tight agains his chest.

This IMO should not be called a strike, he didn't swing, that is not he natural swinging motion, he was just turning from an inside pitch and the bat came 2 inches of his shoulder. No intent to swing at all. I was cold out and maybe Wally need you use the bathroom really bad, I don't know.

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by kylejt

The word "offer" keeps popping up. Anyone care to offer a definition of that term?

I've been taught this simple phrase "did he attempt to strike at the pitched ball?"

Using the plate as a gauge doesn't seem logical. The batters size, position in the box, and length of bat shouldn't have any say in this determination.

For me, "offer" means they were attempting to make deliberate contact with the ball. An example of non-deliberate would be swinging the bat while twisting out of the way of the pitch.

It's all judgement baby.