"real umpires"

[David B]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Someone, Evans perhaps, lists the four stages of umpires:

1) You suck, but don't know it.

2) You suck, and you know it.

3) You don't suck, but you don't know it.

4) You don't suck, and you know it.

"Real Umpires" are those trying to moving through stages 2 - 4 (and those stages exist at all levels -- someone could be in stage 4 for HS ball, but stage 2 for college ball).

"LL Umpires" are those stuck in stage 1 (or 2 if they know it but don't care).

While "LL Umpires" can exist at all levels, IMO, there are a higher percentage in youth ball than at other levels -- youth ball seems to allow those at stage 1 and 2 to stick around more than HS or higher ball.

Now that's well stated Bob. Having to save this post for future reference and in training...

Thanks
David

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by fwump

I've read numerous threads on this site debating the differences between so called "LL" or "small diamond baseball" umpires verses "real" umpires who call on 90' diamonds with shaving aged players.

I propose this: If you have the skill sets and the training to be successful at the HS, college or adult level, then you will perform well on any size diamond regardless. All other debate on the subject is pretty much useless.

I have been at it for over eight years now, calling youth, senior league, HS and NABA. (NO LL for me, I like getting paid). I can confirm through experience that there are terrible umpires out there at ALL levels of baseball. And some of the worst are calling HS JV. (At least down here in north TX).

However, if you have not, for whatever reason, worked higher level baseball at at least HS varsity level or above, then you will never gain the right to proclaim yourself a "real" umpire. I do not consider myself there yet. Thats why I lurk here to try and learn something.

Just my opinion

Mike

I personally do not like to make generalizations.

IMO, Umpiring is all about one's goals and availability.

I worked exclusively LL baseball in my early career. Not because I didn't want to advance but because it fit my work schedule. I could not get out of work in time to make HS games.

Also, in LL their is 90ft. baseball so I gained some experience that way.

When one works HS games, you need a job that fits. You see teachers, postal workers, policemen/ Firemen, sales type people or individuals who have their won business primarily at the HS level because they have a job that fits.

It wasn't until I worked in my job for several years, became a good employee and then was able to "work around" my job to do HS ball.

IMO, the term "REAL UMPIRE" is an umpire who

1. Looks the part meaning they are properly dressed
2. Reads the rule-book
3. Attends some form of mechanics training and
4. Takes pride in what they do no matter what the level of ball.

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

IMO, the term "REAL UMPIRE" is an umpire who

1. Looks the part meaning they are properly dressed
2. Reads the rule-book
3. Attends some form of mechanics training and
4. Takes pride in what they do no matter what the level of ball.

Pete Booth

I find it interesting that neither experience nor ability find a place on your list.

[kylejt]

I guess my question is, what was the point of the original post?

[IowaMike]

I liked the four stages of umpiring. I did baseball for about 5 years, three of those I worked HS JV and a few Varsity games. I always worked some LL and Pony league as well. I believe towards the end I fluctuated back and forth between stages 2 and 3. There are bad JV umps out there but I have seen very few, if any, bad Varsity umps in my area. They all call a decent game and always look like they know what they are doing out there. I never felt that I was anything better than a good JV umpire. Never could get the feel of being really consistent with my strike zone and that is part of the reason I gave it up. I didn't want to be one of those guys who people hate to see show up to work a Varsity game. I also work basketball, do a lot of Varsity games and feel very comfortable with that sport. There is, in my opinion, a world of difference between working a Varsity game vs a LL game. The expectations on you are much higher at the Varsity level, from both the coaches and the players. Most folks are just happy to see an adult in uniform behind the plate at a LL game. I consider guys that umpire for a living real umpires.

[Justme]

As I read the comments to the OP I see various levels of ego here.

I laugh at comments like "you don't become a 'real' umpire until you do HS ball." Talk to a college umpire and he might say "You don't become a 'real' umpire until you do college ball" And there's the D1 umpire in regards to college umpires at lower divisions. Wait there's the MiLB umpires, do they consider the D1 umpire's 'real' umpires? IMHO it's all BS.

I know a 20+ year veteran of LL umpiring. He's as real of an umpire as I have ever seen. I've worked up to small college ball with 'real' umpires at that level too. I've worked with former MiLB umpires, they were 'real' umpires too. And then there are my Brothers in Blue that work HS & Adult League ball with me now, all 'real' umpires.

IMHO there are 'real' umpires at all levels. Real umpires can't be judged by the amount of money they earn on the field or the level they choose to work.
It's based on their dedication to the game, their ability to umpire at whatever level they're at, their desire to do the best they can......and the list contnues. This, IMHO, defines a 'real" umpire.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by fwump

After perhaps 70-80 hours of dual time you finally solo the airplane.
Mike

If it took you that long to solo, you should look for a different hobby

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I find it interesting that neither experience nor ability find a place on your list.

I don't know about the experience not being mentioned. I agree that it should have been. However, I think the four listed are mutually inclusive of ones ability.


Tim.

[GarthB]

Bob:

You brought back memories. From my journal, here is Jim's version of the "Four Stages of Learning":

1. Unconscious Incompetence

You're horsesh!t and you don't know it.

2. Conscious Incompetence

You're horsesh!t and you know it.

3. Conscious Competence

You're competent, but you need to think about what you are doing while performing.

4. Unconscious competence.

You're competent and don't need to think about it, you just do it.

An simple example of this in action:

1. First stage umpires don't utilize the three possible positions for each play because they don't know what they are.

2. Second stage umpires know the three possible positions, but don't use them.

3. Third stage umpires use the three possible positions but have to remind themselves what they are.

4. Fourth stage umpires instinctively utilize the three positions.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

However, I think the four listed are mutually inclusive of ones ability.


Tim.

I don't.

I know umpires who dress great, read the rule book, go to their associations mechanics sessions, are prideful of their efforts and suck. In fact, I think I saw a couple of those at LLWS.

I liken it to music. One can buy a great tux, take lessons, practice like hell, be proud of their efforts and play like crap. Some where along the line there has to be a place for ability, talent, skill, whatever you want to call it.

[fwump]

Originally Posted by Justme

If it took you that long to solo, you should look for a different hobby

Its been a long time ago. Now that I think back it took 70-80 hours to get the airman's certificate. Solo was long before. I did take up a new hobby. Umpiring!

Mike

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I don't.

I know umpires who dress great, read the rule book, go to their associations mechanics sessions, are prideful of their efforts and suck. In fact, I think I saw a couple of those at LLWS.

I liken it to music. One can buy a great tux, take lessons, practice like hell, be proud of their efforts and play like crap. Some where along the line there has to be a place for ability, talent, skill, whatever you want to call it.

Then you're saying there has to be a pre-disposition to succeed as a "real" umpire?

Tim.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Then you're saying there has to be a pre-disposition to succeed as a "real" umpire?

Tim.

RIF

No, I didn't say that. First off all, I don't use the term "real umpires" becaused I don't know what it means.

Secondly, although volumes have been written about the possibility of a pre-disposition to a skill playing a part in future success at that skill, I didn't suggest it. I suggested skill or ability, both of which are developed, is required for one to be considered a good umpire and that looking good, reading the rules, attending a clinic and being proud of your effort are not enough. Perhaps you were confused by my inclusion or the word "talent". We can debate forever what that means. I prefer not to. I'll remove it if it is getting in the way.

As we often tell music students, practice is meaningless unless it is performed properly. Some students can "practice" two hours a day and not develop as well as those who "practice" half an hour a day. There are numerous books written on the art of practice.

It's similar to five years experience and one year's experience five time.

I will continue to contend that a good umpire displays more that the listed four items and must demonstrate the ability to perform well before he is considered a good umpire. Without ability, he just "looks" like a good umpire.

You may continue to believe that skill isn't required if you'd like, or that by lookikng good, reading the rules, attending a clinis and being prideful is either evidence of skill or automatically develops skill. As both and educator and an umpire trainer, I know better.

[gordon30307]

I respect an umpire who not in order of importance:

Looks the part.

Show up on time.

Knows the rules. Not necessarily a rules guru but knows the most common problems that occurs and how to apply the rule properly.

Uses proper mechanics.

Has good timing.

Communicates on the field. ie. uses signals.

Has good game management. One could write a book on what good game management is. But that's another thread.

Is open to suggestions on how to improve as an umpire.

This might not be your list and I may have left something out but if you do the above you're a "real umpire" or at least on your way to becoming a "real umpire".

[fwump]

Originally Posted by PWL

If fw stands for Fort Worth and you umpired in NABA, I wouldn't think that qualifies you as a skilled umpire. I've played over there for years, and I can count the "decent" umpires on one hand. J.D. takes what he can get for the most part. If he didn't, we wouldn't have anybody. Most of the them just take their cash and want to get in and get out ASAP.

The answer is yes and yes. I started calling for JD just this year and you are correct...there are about a half dozen "decent" guys in his group. I consider myself among those. And yes most take their cash and want to get out as quick as possible. But that could be because most of the time its really bad baseball. And its awfully hot in July.

Mike