MLB foul ball overturned.....

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Not from the replays I've seen.

Angel F-up again.

Garth, it's OBVIOUS that the ball hit the bag. From any angle, but especially from the home plate angle.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I still must be too old school for my own good:

1) stick with the foul call. No un-ringing bells, ding-dong. I'm with Rut on this one.

2) No, now is not the time, nor will there ever be the right time for replay in baseball.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Garth, it's OBVIOUS that the ball hit the bag. From any angle, but especially from the home plate angle.

I wouldn't use the word obvious. In the replay shown on ESPN 2 this morning, there was daylight between the ball and the bag. Wait, let me look at it again.

(time passes}

Yep, daylight.

[mbyron]

My complaint about this call isn't so much about whether the ball hit the bag. That's judgment, and if U3 missed it, no biggie.

As far as I know, no manual or book gives the slightest whiff of a hint that PU can do what Hernandez did. Someone mentioned precedent, and this sets a bad one, IMHO.

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Not from the replays I've seen.

Angel F-up again.

I don't care what the replays say...Angel F-ed up again by overruling the foul ball call. I don't care if the ball hit SECOND base.

Now, here's the real question: what will come first? MLB promulgating a rule actually addressing this issue like NFHS did, or MLB getting rid of Angel?

BTW, Angel was U3 on the Pirates/Cubs game tonight. Dusty argued a fair/foul call w/ him in the 11th inning, although it appears that Angel got it right....shocker.

[nickrego]

Some of our mistakes are correctable, but I think a Foul Ball call must stand, unless it is changed to a Home Run.

The reason is that there is no reasonable way to determine what would have happened. I think that is why it is specifically spelled out in some rule sets that a Foul call can not be changed, unless it is for a Home Run.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Haven't checked in over the last week since the guys with white coats (no, not the funny farm gang) keep looking for things to test, stick and biopsy. But I saw this and y'all know that I am especially partial to this topic...plus my old nom de net was used, how could I resist?

Originally Posted by Rut

This is why I hate the "Get it Right" community that tells us that we should always get together on these kinds of plays. To me this is the ultimate why this philosophy has a lot of holes. Even if runners were not on base, you take away the chance for other things to happen. If you call a dead ball, it should be a dead ball. For the record, NF rules makes it clear if you have a foul ball called by the umpire (when the ball hits the ground), you still have a foul ball. If this happen in a HS game under NF rules, they would have broken the rules. I have no idea at this time if NF or NCAA specifically addresses this.

I guess that's just one of the reasons some of us hate you, but I'll stick to the topic.

MLB has decided that if the call can be made 'right', the crew should make every effort to do it. Has anyone considered that Angel and his crew adhere to the "I've got everything up to and including the base, you've got everything beyond."? That sounds like a whole lot of pre-games.

I saw the play and it did look like the ball glanced off the bag and our 3BU did an "Oh, F---." call. Like the uncaught third strike on AJ last year, we can debate wheteher it did or didn't all day. I prefer to focus on the mechanic. Obviously, the PU was convinced that it was improperly called and used the MLB mechanic to rectify the sitaution. They did that and it doesn't set a bad precedent. They must adhere to a set of standards that we can't appreciate.

Jim (SCB1) had it right -it is treated as umpire interference because the umpires call effectively prevented any action from ensuing beyond what actually happened. Since the ball was ruled fair and immediately dead (ala the ball striking the bag and being caught by the umpire) it was properly administered.

I don't consider applying Fed rules to MLB to be the smartest move I've ever seen. I know, I know, you weren't saying that's what should have been called, you were just showing your knowledge of the dumbest rules in organized baseball. Fed rules apply to amateur umpires who may or may not be working alone. The fact that they can be threatened, manipulated or manhandled is why rules like that are on the books at that level. You made your call and don't have three partners to back you up - tough call coach, but I can't do anything about it. Yeah, that's why I love Fed ball and the gang who thinks our job ends with their mighty call. Human fallibility be damned - I'm the UMPIRE! All the second guessing I saw of Pros, NCAA and LL umpires must be for no reason. (snicker, chuckle, guffaw)

[Kaliix]

Oh WWTB, I wish you hadn't of said that.

I'm all for getting the call right under certain limited circumstances, like those set out in the NCAA Division 1 Championship Game Officials Manual that were posted months ago.

But unless the foul ball call is changed to a homerun, this is one of those that just needs to be left alone. Can't go guessing about what would have happened "IF"...

Ball is foul/dead. Get the ball back to the pitcher and let's play ball...

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Haven't checked in over the last week since the guys with white coats (no, not the funny farm gang) keep looking for things to test, stick and biopsy. But I saw this and y'all know that I am especially partial to this topic...plus my old nom de net was used, how could I resist?



I guess that's just one of the reasons some of us hate you, but I'll stick to the topic.

MLB has decided that if the call can be made 'right', the crew should make every effort to do it. Has anyone considered that Angel and his crew adhere to the "I've got everything up to and including the base, you've got everything beyond."? That sounds like a whole lot of pre-games.

I saw the play and it did look like the ball glanced off the bag and our 3BU did an "Oh, F---." call. Like the uncaught third strike on AJ last year, we can debate wheteher it did or didn't all day. I prefer to focus on the mechanic. Obviously, the PU was convinced that it was improperly called and used the MLB mechanic to rectify the sitaution. They did that and it doesn't set a bad precedent. They must adhere to a set of standards that we can't appreciate.

Jim (SCB1) had it right -it is treated as umpire interference because the umpires call effectively prevented any action from ensuing beyond what actually happened. Since the ball was ruled fair and immediately dead (ala the ball striking the bag and being caught by the umpire) it was properly administered.

I don't consider applying Fed rules to MLB to be the smartest move I've ever seen. I know, I know, you weren't saying that's what should have been called, you were just showing your knowledge of the dumbest rules in organized baseball. Fed rules apply to amateur umpires who may or may not be working alone. The fact that they can be threatened, manipulated or manhandled is why rules like that are on the books at that level. You made your call and don't have three partners to back you up - tough call coach, but I can't do anything about it. Yeah, that's why I love Fed ball and the gang who thinks our job ends with their mighty call. Human fallibility be damned - I'm the UMPIRE! All the second guessing I saw of Pros, NCAA and LL umpires must be for no reason. (snicker, chuckle, guffaw)

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

I knew I would rile a few guys like you. I've held this conviction for some time now. I was mocked when I warned that 'umpire conferences' would occr at the Major League level (No way, Windy...those guys are too arrogant and experienced to have one of their calls challenged!!!!). Yet, it happened and I smirked with contentment.

It should come as little surprise that this call would eventually happen. The problem with this one, may be that some of you think that the 3BU should always make this call. Many of us operate under the 'past the bag, it's yours philosophy'. This ball hit the bag and was a pretty clear call for Angel Hernandez. Yes, he is involved in controversial calls, but that may mean that he is aware enough to do what is right, not easy.

I have never over ruled a partner who has called something that was my call to make. I have, however, let them swing for a while as the skipper takes a bite or two out of them. Getting together to discuss it usually solves the issue and our egos, while large, usually shrink enough to acknowledge our blunder.

Lest we forget...MLB allows this call to be made. The conference on this call was appropriate according to MLB standards or these guys wouldn't have done it. Some of you need to accept that things are done for very different reasons at that level. You may not be comfortable doing it, but those guys have to comply or they will miss out on post season assignments or worse.

Like I said, if this was game 7 of the WS and your hero bounced one off the bag, you'd want the crew to get the call right. Just because it hasn't been seen before, doesn't make it any less important to the game. For that batter, his hit ended a long drought. Penalizing a player for your ineptitude is unacceptable at that level. I suggest that some of us may do well to start thinking that way. If you can't or won't, don't blame me when you are ignored for bigger assignments. The ability to adapt is key to life. I once wore a sport coat on the bases and used an outside protector when working games early in my career. Watch some old games and you'll see that dinosaurs like us have been forced to accept new mechanics many times. Illinois High School recently adopted a mechanic that keeps the BU in B for 99% of the plays. I don't like it, because I'm not as fast as I once was, but I need to do it if I work those games. Yeah,I know...Fed baseball is strange.

Anyway, do whatever you have to do to keep your assignor and league happy. If they want the right call made at all costs, you know what you have to do. If not...nothing has changed and we've got a good thread to debate.

[LakeErieUmp]

You can't talk about IR in football and compare it to baseball. Football uses professional doctors and lawyers who only referee part-time twenty games max a season. Baseball uses professional full-time umpires. The only close comparison is hockey which is no replay except goal/no-goal and THAT is because you have a guy in a high chair looking down through a net at at 90 mile an hour puck, and another guy in a striped shirt watching the puck AND remembering who shot it, and who passed it to him, AND who passed it to THAT guy.
There is no sport with professional officials who has instituted IR for basic plays.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I wouldn't use the word obvious. In the replay shown on ESPN 2 this morning, there was daylight between the ball and the bag. Wait, let me look at it again.

(time passes}

Yep, daylight.

You must be looking at a different play ... the ball ricochets off the bag. It's blatantly obvious.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

You must be looking at a different play ... the ball ricochets off the bag. It's blatantly obvious.

The ball bounces to the left in the very close proximity of the bag. The mind completes the picture.

There is daylight betwixt the two.

No sense in continuing. I can see the video that I am looking over and over. And you apparently can see something else. No problem. Angel thought he saw something, too.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

I guess that's just one of the reasons some of us hate you, but I'll stick to the topic.

I guess all that "hatin" has really accomplished something. You will soon see. You soon find out.

Peace

[Tim C]

"You will let you soon find out."

I'm not sure either guys.

Regards,

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

You can't talk about IR in football and compare it to baseball. Football uses professional doctors and lawyers who only referee part-time twenty games max a season. Baseball uses professional full-time umpires.

There is no sport with professional officials who has instituted IR for basic plays.

Football officials do not work games every single day. Football officials work once a week. Unless you are going to hold every football official in a training facility, then you cannot compare what football officials do to other sports.

Also you are right; there are no basic plays that can be changed through NFL or NCAA football games. You cannot review any penalty or many judgment calls. And when the whistle blows, in many cases nothing can be reviewed. In the baseball situation we are talking about, the umpire called a foul ball. I am not sure how you can go back and do that after everyone hears the ball is dead. To me this is the equivalent of the whistle being blown dead in football and the defense running the ball back for a TD (while the ball is dead). Then coming back and saying, "We know the ball was dead, but we are going to award the TD anyway." That would be wrong in that case, it was wrong to come back and change a foul ball in this case. Too many other things can happen. I agree with certain calls we should be willing to give information or take information, but just because someone thinks it is a good idea in one case, does not make every situation appropriate to use this philosophy.

I do not think anyone has ever taken an objection to deciding a foul ball that could have been a home run to be over turned. The ball is already dead and someone could have easily had another angle or offer information to get that right. The next thing we are going to start doing is having base umpires change balls and strikes. Why not, you might just get it right.

Peace