When to signal, or not to...

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Getting down on a knee is a horrible habit, in my opinion.

I see guys do it on plays at first. On a bad throw that requires a lean and a look to get the swipe tag correctly, how do you do that from one knee?

And if you are waiting to read the throw before coming set, it's pretty hard to get on one knee set in time to make the call.

The guys on TV can do it because a vast majority of the throws are true. For those of us who may have to handle multiple swipe tags per GAME, it's better to use a standing set.

I was just pointing out that the one knee stance was not to call attention to the umpire, as was stated. I have personally never done it.

[nickrego]

b) Signal ONLY and ALWAYS when the Baseman tries to put a tag on. No matter how serious or lackadaisical the attempt was.

[Uncle George]

It apparent that there are a lot of "umps" in this thread that:

A) Umpire because they want to be in controll of all situations!

B) Have a chip on their shoulder and are just begging someone to knock it off!

C) want the last word!

For me, not a controll freak, no ego's, no chips and could care less who has the last word!

But hey, that's me!

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by Uncle George

I'm not afraid of selling close calls. I belive that when you "sell the call", it most often brings out the coach to protest the call. It seems the closer the call, the louder you get, the trouble you're going to get into!

Au contraire. It tends to be quite the opposite. I've seen it. Many times. In my observations/evaluations of umpires this past spring (D-II and D-III games here), I saw more than once an umpire give a nonchalant or "normal" out call on a wacker at first base. Each time this resulted in significant griping or an outright argument. Oftentimes I heard the "Are you SURE?!?" from the dugout. Even I, as observer, instantly had a question in my mind as to whether that umpire got it right or not, and why? Because on such a close play his not being emphatic--selling the call--implied that he may not have been so sure of himself.

Oftentimes perception is more important than reality, whether we care to admit it or not.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I've always thought that letting the PU cover second made sense because it's a leisurely stroll to second from an umpire already inside the diamond and at the 45-foot line.

I've always thought this made NO sense. You mean you're going to tell me a plate umpire should run across the diamond to cover the B-R going to second when the ball is overthrown to first??? No way! That's the base umpire's call all the way. The plate umpire's responsibility is the overthrow and it possibly going out of play. He drifts to his right toward the out of play area to see whether the ball goes through or over a fence or other border. What's the base ump to do if the PU went to second? Is the BU then going to cover the out of play: "Oh, excuse me, Mr. Batter-runner, while I cut across your running path to follow the ball out of play."

There is absolutely no way no how I'd ever consider covering second as the PU here. It just makes no sense whatsoever.

[Tim C]

For many, many years the professional mechanic was anytime the BU felt pressure and went to foul ground to make the call at first base the PU (who is working the inside of the first base line) was to release inside and cover plays that could happen at second or third. The BU would then cover a ball going out of play.

While I am not a proponent of this system it was used extensively previously in games of two man crews in lower levels of professional baseball.

I freely admit that since I have not attended a professional school in many years and have not worked (or watched) a lower level minor league game in years this system is probably no longer taught.

But it did make sense to SOMEONE in the past.

Regards,

[David B]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Getting down on a knee is a horrible habit, in my opinion.

I see guys do it on plays at first. On a bad throw that requires a lean and a look to get the swipe tag correctly, how do you do that from one knee?

And if you are waiting to read the throw before coming set, it's pretty hard to get on one knee set in time to make the call.

The guys on TV can do it because a vast majority of the throws are true. For those of us who may have to handle multiple swipe tags per GAME, it's better to use a standing set.

The other thing is that the guys on TV don't have to worry about quickly moving to cover another base etc.,

All they have to do is call one base at a time since they have a four man crew.

In the real world with a two man crew there's too many things that can happen that I've got to be moving quickly.

Thanks
David

[Rich]

Originally Posted by UMP25

I've always thought this made NO sense. You mean you're going to tell me a plate umpire should run across the diamond to cover the B-R going to second when the ball is overthrown to first??? No way! That's the base umpire's call all the way. The plate umpire's responsibility is the overthrow and it possibly going out of play. He drifts to his right toward the out of play area to see whether the ball goes through or over a fence or other border. What's the base ump to do if the PU went to second? Is the BU then going to cover the out of play: "Oh, excuse me, Mr. Batter-runner, while I cut across your running path to follow the ball out of play."

There is absolutely no way no how I'd ever consider covering second as the PU here. It just makes no sense whatsoever.

It makes more sense to say something like, "Excuse me Mr. Batter-Runner, I'm going to try to cut in front of you [as the BU] in order to take you to second base. But you'll react quickly to the bad throw and I'll have to wait for you and trail you. I may get there and set for a play at second."

It makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense to you. So what?

[David B]

Originally Posted by UMP25

I've always thought this made NO sense. You mean you're going to tell me a plate umpire should run across the diamond to cover the B-R going to second when the ball is overthrown to first??? No way! That's the base umpire's call all the way. The plate umpire's responsibility is the overthrow and it possibly going out of play. He drifts to his right toward the out of play area to see whether the ball goes through or over a fence or other border. What's the base ump to do if the PU went to second? Is the BU then going to cover the out of play: "Oh, excuse me, Mr. Batter-runner, while I cut across your running path to follow the ball out of play."

There is absolutely no way no how I'd ever consider covering second as the PU here. It just makes no sense whatsoever.

I beg to differ. What Rich states in his post is how its been covered in my games for at least the last 15 years.

The PU has a great view of the play and a great look at the play moving to second while BU will have his back to the play as he's busting to try and find a way to get to second and make the call.

And as PU it gives you something to do since you're already out in the infield.

Thansk
DAvid

[LMan]

Originally Posted by David B

In the real world with a two man crew there's too many things that can happen that I've got to be moving quickly.

As BU in 2-man, with multiple runners on, you may make 2-4 safe/out calls on a single play Gotta be hustling!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Uncle George

It apparent that there are a lot of "umps" in this thread that:

A) Umpire because they want to be in controll of all situations!

B) Have a chip on their shoulder and are just begging someone to knock it off!

C) want the last word!

For me, not a controll freak, no ego's, no chips and could care less who has the last word!

But hey, that's me!

George, I want you to meet Mr. Hominem, first name Ad.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Uncle George

It apparent that there are a lot of "umps" in this thread that:

A) Umpire because they want to be in controll of all situations!

B) Have a chip on their shoulder and are just begging someone to knock it off!

C) want the last word!

For me, not a controll freak, no ego's, no chips and could care less who has the last word!

But hey, that's me!

George-
I'm not one for a big ego, and I rarely insist on the last word. The reason you're getting so much grief is because you're offering advice such as

When I'm the PU and there's a timing play, I watch for the BU's signal, I don't listen for the call!

and

In most cases, you've got a coach at first base and the only ones who need to know that the batter-runner is out is the the batter-runner and the coach!

and

when you "sell the call", it most often brings out the coach to protest the call.

and

Obvious foul ball, a verbal "foul" (however I wait until it comes to a dead stop, hits fence, goes over fence)

You should be aware that many rookie umpires visit internet forums to learn game management skills as well as mechanics because their local associations are lacking in their ability or desire to help young guys develop. Giving advice such as the nuggets above will only hinder an umpire's progress.

I'm not trying to chastise you here, but if 99% of the people are telling you that something you do is incorrect, accept that and move on.

[LMan]

"Sorry folks, the zoo is closing...next scheduled troll feeding is 11 AM"

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by Tim C

For many, many years the professional mechanic was anytime the BU felt pressure and went to foul ground to make the call at first base the PU (who is working the inside of the first base line) was to release inside and cover plays that could happen at second or third. The BU would then cover a ball going out of play.

While I am not a proponent of this system it was used extensively previously in games of two man crews in lower levels of professional baseball.

I freely admit that since I have not attended a professional school in many years and have not worked (or watched) a lower level minor league game in years this system is probably no longer taught.

But it did make sense to SOMEONE in the past.

Regards,

Oh, I'm aware, Tim, that it used to be done a long time ago, but there's a reason why it's not done today, thank God.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

It makes more sense to say something like, "Excuse me Mr. Batter-Runner, I'm going to try to cut in front of you [as the BU] in order to take you to second base. But you'll react quickly to the bad throw and I'll have to wait for you and trail you. I may get there and set for a play at second."

It makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense to you. So what?

Uh huh. The plate umpire will be trailing said B-R, and there's nothing that looks better than an umpire running after a baserunner and making a call from behind.

I don't know when they changed this mechanic--I went to umpire school in 1989 and it wasn't even remotely suggested then--but it sure makes sense that they did.

I also must say that in 29 years of umpiring, which, of course, doesn't make me perfect, I have never, ever seen this or worked with anyone who did this.