Correctable Error?

[lawump]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

This is a great response. I contend that by not punishing the offensive team, the umpire is certainly setting himself up for a protest. Regardless of the Batters intent, he advanced to first base without being eligible to do so. If B2 completes B1's at bat, there has to (after a proper appeal) be an out called. Otherwise, it's unfair to the defense.



BTW- This is a great thread!

And as I posted earlier, I contend that the umpire bringing R1 back to bat after a pitch, play or attempted play has occurred is setting himself up for a protest...for misapplying the protest rule by basically correcting an error that had to be corrected before the next pitch, play or attempted play.

What's fair to the defense is for the umpire to uphold a properly lodged protest on the field. What's unfair is to deny a proper protest.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by lawump

Why do some feel that it is o.k. to bring R1 back at-bat after the two pitches have been thrown, but that they couldn't bring him back if something had happened (hit, infield fly, whatever) on one of those two pitches? "Easy" doesn't mean its correct.

lawump, on this, I agree with you. Just having a "do-over" on the two pitches because it was easy to fix is not the right way to do this, because it would obviously not be the right way to do this had something more significant happened.

To me, the ONLY way to fix this is to treat it EXACTLY as if the original BR had simply been erroneously replaced by the next batter, in the middle of his at bat --- the pitches count. If something significant happened, treat as BOO, just as you would had he been erroneously replaced by the next batter. If something significant didn't happen (like the OP - just two pitches, no other effects), then the original correct batter comes back to finish his at bat ... which is just what you'd do if BOO was reported at this point.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by lawump

In your scenario, the coach cannot at anytime be in the game legally...there is a violation of the substition rules: namely, he didn't sub for anyone!

I think that it CANNOT be a violation of the substitution rules BECAUSE he didn't sub for anyone.

your situation does not involve a misapplication of the rules by the umpires. There was no call made by the umpires that could have trigged the coaches' conduct.

I agree that that's true, but do NOT agree that in the OP the umpire made any award or even an error. At worst, he failed to preventatively umpire and failed to get the improper player (regardless of whether he was the current batter or a basecoach or someone else on the team) off the base in a timely matter - this portion can be fixed by 9.01c. But the umpire is not responsible for preventing the offense from sending the wrong batter to the plate, even if the offensive mistake happened mid-at-bat.

However, in the OP, while I cannot guarantee it (since I can't read the player's mind), it is likely that the B/R went to first as a result of Balk call...that is, he believed the penalty included him going to first.

I agree with this, but the batter's BELIEF is not the umpire's fault.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by lawump

And as I posted earlier, I contend that the umpire bringing R1 back to bat after a pitch, play or attempted play has occurred is setting himself up for a protest...for misapplying the protest rule by basically correcting an error that had to be corrected before the next pitch, play or attempted play.

And I understand that this is your opinion. Mine differs and it happens to agree with Carl's in this instance. Absent a factual ruling, I guess that is where I'll have to leave it.

[socalblue1]

Considering the age level of both players and umpires, I would go with Carl here: Bring R1 back to the box with his original count and play on.

Why make it hard? The kids are U10 - fix it and play on. Any coach or manager that's goes overboard about this is leaving. The TD get's his tail kicked after the game.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I think that it CANNOT be a violation of the substitution rules BECAUSE he didn't sub for anyone.

And I think it is a violation for that same reason...but we don't have a definitive answer to settle this.

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I agree that that's true, but do NOT agree that in the OP the umpire made any award or even an error. At worst, he failed to preventatively umpire and failed to get the improper player (regardless of whether he was the current batter or a basecoach or someone else on the team) off the base in a timely matter - this portion can be fixed by 9.01c. But the umpire is not responsible for preventing the offense from sending the wrong batter to the plate, even if the offensive mistake happened mid-at-bat.

And as I previously posted, I believe the failure to prevent the batter from taking first as a result of the balk call constitutes an award of first (as posted above). We'll again just have to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I agree with this, but the batter's BELIEF is not the umpire's fault.

No, but the umpire's misapplication of the rules is (as discussed above by me in this thread).

We agree to disagree!

As an aside: In an NCAA Division 1 baseball game I had the following take place:

(1) 3-1 count to batter. Pitch comes in, I say "Ball four". Batter goes to first.
(2) First pitch to next batter occurs...called "strike".
(3) Defensive manager comes out to argue that it was only "ball three" to the first batter.
(4) I tell him I'm sure it was ball four as I said the count out load several times during the at-bat, without objection from anyone, and that in any event "even if you are right another pitch has occured so it is too late to protest."
(5) He muttered about me being wrong and left.

Was I wrong?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

Then whatcha gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you...Brother?

I dunno, run and get Randy Savage and have an old-timers tag team?