Correctable Error?

[Tim C]

OK, just got involved in this one.

Age of players doesn't matter (but they are 9 and 10).

Bases Loaded -- One Out!

Pitcher balks,

All runners advance BUT batter also jogs to first.

No one notices (I know bad, but it is what happened):

After two pitches are thrown the PU recognizes that the bases are still juiced and figures out what happened.

He calls time and returns (illegal R1) to bat:

TD comes out of crowd and says after a pitch was thrown the error cannot be corrected and over rules the PU placing (Batter) R1 back to first.

Any takers?

Regards

[SanDiegoSteve]

Is this before or after the umpire comes out of his coma?

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Tell that Umpire to stay home next game As far as correctable, This might go under batting out of order too. However, I'd say illeagal R1 is up to bat, count is the same as i was before he went to first. Sounds like someone had a brain cramp.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

I know of no better way to handle it except my fool proof fake heart attack. Makes them feel sorry for me and forget what just happened.

Oh Lordy, this is the big one....Elizabeth, I'm comin' to join ya honey!

[Huskerblue]

Ya Big Dummy!!!

[Tim C]

PWL wrote:

"How are you going to say he batted out of order? I've heard of umpires losing count and awarding a base with only three balls. I suppose the fair thing to do here would be to bring the batter back to the plate with his original count, leave runners at second and third. Erase last two pitches as neither team gained an advantage and no one advanced. Unless their is some precedent or rule I'm not aware of, I know of no better way to handle it except my fool proof fake heart attack. Makes them feel sorry for me and forget what just happened.

For all the criticism I have leveled at PWL in the past I would like to say that this may be his finest post.

Crisp and clear (like a good strike call) and also funny.

If we recognize clearly that the PU errored and should be shot and then then be dipped in tar and feathers we need to move on:

Can we do what some suggest? By rule can we take pitches off the board and in fact have a "do over?"

Regards,

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by Tim C

PWL wrote:

"How are you going to say he batted out of order? I've heard of umpires losing count and awarding a base with only three balls. I suppose the fair thing to do here would be to bring the batter back to the plate with his original count, leave runners at second and third. Erase last two pitches as neither team gained an advantage and no one advanced. Unless their is some precedent or rule I'm not aware of, I know of no better way to handle it except my fool proof fake heart attack. Makes them feel sorry for me and forget what just happened.

For all the criticism I have leveled at PWL in the past I would like to say that this may be his finest post.

Crisp and clear (like a good strike call) and also funny.

If we recognize clearly that the PU errored and should be shot and then then be dipped in tar and feathers we need to move on:

Can we do what some suggest? By rule can we take pitches off the board and in fact have a "do over?"

Regards,

Yes. This isn't basketball. Bring him back with the correct count. Throw everything else away.

Too easy for words.

[C'monBlue]

There are so many things egregiously wrong with this situation that I hardly know where to begin. In no particular order:

1) 9-10 yr. olds don't balk. I've never seen it, and this case illustrates why no one else should see it either. And if you see one, you have to see them all. Let the circus begin.

2) The batter-runner inexplicably ended up at 1B. Brain fart of the collective baseball unconscious.

3) TD entered the field to overturn the umpire. If he would have started umpiring my game, he would have finished it, because I would have been in the car.

4) Tee is asking about a LL situation. This is surely the end of life as we know it.

As for the ruling, it sounds to me like a do-over from the point of the brain fart, followed by the obligatory faux myocardial infarction.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by C'monBlue

There are so many things egregiously wrong with this situation that I hardly know where to begin. In no particular order:

1) 9-10 yr. olds don't balk. I've never seen it, and this case illustrates why no one else should see it either. And if you see one, you have to see them all. Let the circus begin.

2) The batter-runner inexplicably ended up at 1B. Brain fart of the collective baseball unconscious.

3) TD entered the field to overturn the umpire. If he would have started umpiring my game, he would have finished it, because I would have been in the car.

4) Tee is asking about a LL situation. This is surely the end of life as we know it.

As for the ruling, it sounds to me like a do-over from the point of the brain fart, followed by the obligatory faux myocardial infarction.

1) There are most definitely balks at the 9-10 yr old level. If you don't call them in a Mustang League game, you won't hear the end of it, I guarantee you. The pitchers at that level are expected to know what is and isn't a balk by the time any tournament play begins, and the umpires are expected to call balks.

2) Agreed.

3) The TD can stop the game to correct an incorrect ruling. In tournament play, they try to settle protestable situations on the field before continuing. The last thing they want is to have to replay any games on an upheld protest.

4) Again, this is not a Little League situation, as there are no balks in Little League ® baseball at the 9-10 yr old level. This is obviously an organization that has leadoffs, balks, etc.

[mcrowder]

Cmon - all 9-year old baseball is not LL!

PWL - I think you could defend your solution using 9.01c if necessary.

Personally, I would have handled two things differently.

First - to the TD - depending on the manner he approached the fence I would either quietly or rudely tell him to go F himself (and depending on his manner, I might even use that word). TD's have NO BUSINESS interjecting themselves into any game situations unless a protest comes up. Period. Ever.

Second - to the sitch at hand.

I don't know that we can blame PU for what happened and just call a do-over. Tee -- what was the count when the original balk occurred? Since the phantom R1 never left first or affected a play, simply get him off the base. Now, the original batter (phantom R1) is the correct batter. The 2 pitches that came in were essentially to a batter batting out of order (just as if the proper batter had gone to the dugout and been replaced by the next batter, and no one noticed). I think you have to count the two pitches. If this completed the batters turn at bat, then you have a true BOO... if not, simply put the two pitches on the board after whatever count existed at the time of the Balk, and get the right batter to the plate.

Note that if more had occurred, such as R1 being involved in a play, or a BB which should have been with R2 and R3, but appeared to all to be with bases loaded, you have a TRUE CF, and 9.01c is likely your ONLY way out (other than the admittedly humorous Redd Foxx defense).

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Originally Posted by PWL

How are you going to say he batted out of order?

Batting out of turn? I Think everyone on the feild was asleep during this game for that to happen

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I can sure understand one umpire falling asleep at the wheel at any given time. But both umpires at the same time? How could they both not have noticed that the batter ran to first base on a balk call?

eeek. Steve i agree. This musta been a boring game or something

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Tim C

OK, just got involved in this one.

Age of players doesn't matter (but they are 9 and 10).

Bases Loaded -- One Out!

Pitcher balks,

All runners advance BUT batter also jogs to first.

No one notices (I know bad, but it is what happened):

After two pitches are thrown the PU recognizes that the bases are still juiced and figures out what happened.

He calls time and returns (illegal R1) to bat:

TD comes out of crowd and says after a pitch was thrown the error cannot be corrected and over rules the PU placing (Batter) R1 back to first.

Any takers?

Regards

TEE, your thread is definitely a 9.01c ruling.

First I agree with another poster. THE TD has no business being on the playing field UNLESS he is asked to. From the thread he wasn't asked to, he took it upon himself to interject in the game. Therefore, I ignore whatever he said.

I disagree with the others as far as what I would do. I would leave things as they are:

Why!

I would treat it similar to an appeal play. If a runner misses a base and the defense does not appeal before the next pitch or play - All bets off.

The aforementioned thread is similar. As soon as the defense saw B1 jogging to first on the balk call, they should have asked for time and questioned the umpires at that point.

Here we have 2 pitches thrown and the defense still has said nothing so I would leave B1 at first and continue. I believe it is said that the particpants should be aware of the rules ala the IF situation.

Pete Booth

[lawump]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Why!

I would treat it similar to an appeal play. If a runner misses a base and the defense does not appeal before the next pitch or play - All bets off.

The aforementioned thread is similar. As soon as the defense saw B1 jogging to first on the balk call, they should have asked for time and questioned the umpires at that point.

Here we have 2 pitches thrown and the defense still has said nothing so I would leave B1 at first and continue. I believe it is said that the particpants should be aware of the rules ala the IF situation.

Pete Booth

Pete,

I agree except the defense must "protest" properly not "appeal". This is not an appealable play, rather it is a protestable play.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Tim C

OK, just got involved in this one.

Age of players doesn't matter (but they are 9 and 10).

Bases Loaded -- One Out!

Pitcher balks,

All runners advance BUT batter also jogs to first.

No one notices (I know bad, but it is what happened):

After two pitches are thrown the PU recognizes that the bases are still juiced and figures out what happened.

He calls time and returns (illegal R1) to bat:

TD comes out of crowd and says after a pitch was thrown the error cannot be corrected and over rules the PU placing (Batter) R1 back to first.

Any takers?

Regards

My God! I can't even imagine this happening in one of my games but I'll play the part of the sleeping PU.

Me - "Time" I go to my partner (who was also sleeping) and discuss what we are going to do now.

Me - "You! (pointing to the 'illegal runner') Back to the box!"

Defensive coach - "What's going on?"

Me - "Here's the deal, coach... I screwed up! Blah, blah, blah"

Defensive coach - "You can,t..."

Me - "Stop right there coach. I'm not the only one who was asleep at the switch so I don't want to hear it. This is what is happening and that is that. Please go back to your dugout"

TD comes out of the stands and starts his serenade.

Me - "Mr. TD your input is not needed here nor is it required. When I need you for something, I shall call for you."

Send the "incorrect batter" back to the on deck area, make sure that the runners are where they are supposed to be, put the original batter in the box with the count at the time of the balk, remind my partner that we need to be awake for this one, suck it up and get on with the game. And oh yes, be prepared for an onslaught of comments from everyone in the stands - again, suck it up!

[Tim C]

Great stuff guys:

First, the PU is like 14 or 15 years old . . .

Second, the TD entered the field without being asked . . .

Third, "Umpires asleep at the wheel:"

Going back to MY OWN game journals the "Great Tee" once did the following:

No outs,
R1
Count of 1-1 on batter.

Pitch comes as R1 is stealing second,

PU (me) calls the pitch a strike . . . catcher pops up and throws,

Ball sails through F6 into CF, R1 tries to advance, to third.

R1 is out at third and we all return to normal.

I look at my "indiclickercounter" and see the count of 1-2.

Next pitch slices the center of the strike zone and I give it the BIG "Hike Three."

Batter looks at me and says: "That was the first pitch too me!"

The last batter thought the "second" strike was strike three and went to the dugout during the plays on R1.

So Tee thinks: "Hmm, how can I get out of this one?"

So I just call "Time" and bring back the correct batter, ignore the pitch to the "incorrect batter" and puff out my chest like I knew what I was doing.

Any umpire can, in fact, fall asleep at the wheel.


Regards,