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Old Tue Aug 08, 2006, 10:39pm
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Questions from another forum.

Another one from the fans. Assume OBR for both.:

"1.) Is it true or is it myth that a new pitcher must throw at least 1 pitch to a batter if he throws one warm-up pitch.

2.) This question pertains to travel ball mostly but I have been told it is in OBR. Is there a rule that prohibits a pitcher from returning to the mound? ie. Starter leaves mound with 2 outs and SS goes to mound. Next inning the starter returns to the mound and the SS back to short. Again with two outs they switch positions. I have been unable to find anything in OBR that states a pitcher can not return to the mound. Only thing I can find is that he must leave the mound if the coach visits twice in one inning. "

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Old Tue Aug 08, 2006, 11:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Another one from the fans. Assume OBR for both.:

"1.) Is it true or is it myth that a new pitcher must throw at least 1 pitch to a batter if he throws one warm-up pitch.

2.) This question pertains to travel ball mostly but I have been told it is in OBR. Is there a rule that prohibits a pitcher from returning to the mound? ie. Starter leaves mound with 2 outs and SS goes to mound. Next inning the starter returns to the mound and the SS back to short. Again with two outs they switch positions. I have been unable to find anything in OBR that states a pitcher can not return to the mound. Only thing I can find is that he must leave the mound if the coach visits twice in one inning. "

Thanks again!
1) The "one warmup" verbiage is in the LL rulebook. However, rule 3.08 of OBR simply says this:

3.08
If no announcement of a substitution is made, the substitute shall be considered as having entered the game when --
(1) If a pitcher, he takes his place on the pitcher’s plate

2) If he leaves because of a second visit, he's done pitching. Depending on the ruleset and the local rules, he can move to SS and then return to pitch.
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Old Tue Aug 08, 2006, 11:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
"1.) Is it true or is it myth that a new pitcher must throw at least 1 pitch to a batter if he throws one warm-up pitch.
Rich has already said that throwing a warmup pitch is not required, but the pitcher would be required to pitch until the batter at bat (or his sub) reaches base or is put out, or until the third out is made. The pitcher may be removed before the above criteria is met if he is becomes ill, is injured, or ejected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
2.) This question pertains to travel ball mostly but I have been told it is in OBR. Is there a rule that prohibits a pitcher from returning to the mound? ie. Starter leaves mound with 2 outs and SS goes to mound. Next inning the starter returns to the mound and the SS back to short. Again with two outs they switch positions. I have been unable to find anything in OBR that states a pitcher can not return to the mound. Only thing I can find is that he must leave the mound if the coach visits twice in one inning. "
The pitcher can only return to pitch once per inning. F1 pitches to first batter, then he switches with SS. SS gets 8 warmup pitches. He pitches to one batter, then they switch back. F1 gets 8 more warmup pitches. He pitches to a batter and then they switch again. SS gets 8 warmup pitches. The original pitcher is done pitching for that inning. He has returned to pitch once in the current inning. He cannot return twice. Original pitcher can return to pitch for the next inning.
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Old Wed Aug 09, 2006, 06:36am
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I agree with LDUB's answers for OBR, but will add that many (most?) "youth groups" do not allow a pitcher to return to the mound once he's been removed for whatever reason.
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Old Wed Aug 09, 2006, 07:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
1.) I don't know all of the forty myths, but a pitcher doesn't have to throw a pitch to a batter to record an out. He must just record an out. He can simply pick a runner off of base and be replaced without throwing a single pitch to a batter. I don't do much OBR and I'm not for sure the one warm up pitch is written in Rule 8 (Pitching).
Picking off a runner doesn't fulfill the pitcher's obligation... he must complete at least 1 at bat (1 pitch, as mentioned in OP, is also not enough), OR he must get the 3rd out of an inning (which could be accomplished by that pickoff)
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Old Wed Aug 09, 2006, 08:35am
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mcrowder nailed question 1. In OBR a sub pitcher must pitch to at least 1 batter until said batter completes his time at bat or until the defense is put out (ie the side is retired) or if he is removed due to an injury or illness.

Question 2 is easily answered by remembering that a pitcher may change positions once per inning and still be eligible to return to pitch unless he is removed by rule (second visit by a coach or manager in the same inning) See 3.05 (a)(b).

Last edited by ctblu40; Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 08:39am.
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Old Wed Aug 09, 2006, 10:28am
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This why I love these forums, picking up nuances and often overlooked rules all the time.

I did remember about the pitcher can change positions once an inning, but in double-checking the OBR, I did notice that on the second trip to the same pitcher in the same inning, the pitcher must be removed from the GAME.

Frequently in the under high school age leagues I do, and they use OBR, that pitcher heads out to play another defensive position instead and it is understood that he can't come back in and pitch later in the game.

But if I understand 3.03 correctly, not only should the 2nd visit pitcher come out of the game, but he can't come in as a sub for anyone the rest of the game.

Is this correct? With all the 12 - 14 player rosters I see, that could be a real problem. I have never seen this rule enforced so I am just curious as to what I am missing.
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Old Wed Aug 09, 2006, 01:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz
But if I understand 3.03 correctly, not only should the 2nd visit pitcher come out of the game, but he can't come in as a sub for anyone the rest of the game.
Yes the pitcher must be removed from the game. A player who is removed cannot return to the game. If your state uses the OBR for HS play, then they very well may have modified this ruling.
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Old Wed Aug 09, 2006, 01:17pm
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A substitution, if announced prior to the manager visiting the mound, is NOT a visit - so this pitcher could pitch, play SS, pitch, play SS, and NOT be removed from the game.
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Old Wed Aug 09, 2006, 04:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
A substitution, if announced prior to the manager visiting the mound, is NOT a visit - so this pitcher could pitch, play SS, pitch, play SS, and NOT be removed from the game.
Just to be clear, that's if the substitution is announced before the manager takes his one "allowed" trip to the mound. If the manager has made an allowed trip and not removed the pitcher, then the pitcher can't (under pure OBR) be moved to another position (as this would be considered a second trip and the pitcher must be removed).
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Old Thu Aug 10, 2006, 08:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz
But if I understand 3.03 correctly, not only should the 2nd visit pitcher come out of the game, but he can't come in as a sub for anyone the rest of the game.
I never really knew this before... this is HUGE!
Does anyone know if the rule is written exactly the same in the LL and Babe Ruth books? I no longer have copies of these codes and would like to know. I know that when reading the OBR, LL, and Babe Ruth books, the rules are almost identical.

If they are the same, how would you handle this situation when it comes up? My guess is that this is something that has never been enforced in amature ball due to oversight.
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Old Thu Aug 10, 2006, 08:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Just to be clear, that's if the substitution is announced before the manager takes his one "allowed" trip to the mound. If the manager has made an allowed trip and not removed the pitcher, then the pitcher can't (under pure OBR) be moved to another position (as this would be considered a second trip and the pitcher must be removed).
I'm not sure that's right, but maybe we are envisioning different things. I'll posit a scenario, you tell me if you'd rule it illegal and if so, by what rule.

Coach makes his visit, pitcher stays in. After finishing this batter, either A) pitcher simply drops the ball and goes to shortstop with F6 coming to the mound, B) coach yells out from the dugout, "Steve, Fred, Switch!", and F1 anf F6 switch places, or C) coach asks for time and proceeds straight to the umpire, telling him he's switching F1 and F6, and then visits new pitcher (old F6) at the mound as he's warming up.

I see all three of these as legal, but it would seem from your previous post that you would not allow any of these - and if I'm reading you right, which rule are you using for this.
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Old Thu Aug 10, 2006, 08:40am
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From J/R:

[It is a trip if a manager (or his coach)] ...

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.
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Old Thu Aug 10, 2006, 08:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
From J/R:

[It is a trip if a manager (or his coach)] ...

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.
I just found this in J/R as well! Jeees... just when I think I know the rules...
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Old Thu Aug 10, 2006, 09:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
From J/R:

[It is a trip if a manager (or his coach)] ...

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.
OK, I'll be honest - I've read JR, but have never noticed this particular item. My question, then (since no one I know of around here counts it that way) is - what rule is JR using to come to this conclusion. As it was said in the thread the other day - JR et all are not meant to supercede the rulebook, but rather to clarify it or support it. I can't find any reasoning (implied, written, or otherwise) in the rulebook to point me toward charging a conference without an actual conference.
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