Questions from another forum.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Fritz

But if I understand 3.03 correctly, not only should the 2nd visit pitcher come out of the game, but he can't come in as a sub for anyone the rest of the game.

Yes the pitcher must be removed from the game. A player who is removed cannot return to the game. If your state uses the OBR for HS play, then they very well may have modified this ruling.

[mcrowder]

A substitution, if announced prior to the manager visiting the mound, is NOT a visit - so this pitcher could pitch, play SS, pitch, play SS, and NOT be removed from the game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

A substitution, if announced prior to the manager visiting the mound, is NOT a visit - so this pitcher could pitch, play SS, pitch, play SS, and NOT be removed from the game.

Just to be clear, that's if the substitution is announced before the manager takes his one "allowed" trip to the mound. If the manager has made an allowed trip and not removed the pitcher, then the pitcher can't (under pure OBR) be moved to another position (as this would be considered a second trip and the pitcher must be removed).

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Just to be clear, that's if the substitution is announced before the manager takes his one "allowed" trip to the mound. If the manager has made an allowed trip and not removed the pitcher, then the pitcher can't (under pure OBR) be moved to another position (as this would be considered a second trip and the pitcher must be removed).

I'm not sure that's right, but maybe we are envisioning different things. I'll posit a scenario, you tell me if you'd rule it illegal and if so, by what rule.

Coach makes his visit, pitcher stays in. After finishing this batter, either A) pitcher simply drops the ball and goes to shortstop with F6 coming to the mound, B) coach yells out from the dugout, "Steve, Fred, Switch!", and F1 anf F6 switch places, or C) coach asks for time and proceeds straight to the umpire, telling him he's switching F1 and F6, and then visits new pitcher (old F6) at the mound as he's warming up.

I see all three of these as legal, but it would seem from your previous post that you would not allow any of these - and if I'm reading you right, which rule are you using for this.

[bob jenkins]

From J/R:

[It is a trip if a manager (or his coach)] ...

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

From J/R:

[It is a trip if a manager (or his coach)] ...

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.

I just found this in J/R as well! Jeees... just when I think I know the rules...

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

From J/R:

[It is a trip if a manager (or his coach)] ...

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.

OK, I'll be honest - I've read JR, but have never noticed this particular item. My question, then (since no one I know of around here counts it that way) is - what rule is JR using to come to this conclusion. As it was said in the thread the other day - JR et all are not meant to supercede the rulebook, but rather to clarify it or support it. I can't find any reasoning (implied, written, or otherwise) in the rulebook to point me toward charging a conference without an actual conference.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

OK, I'll be honest - I've read JR, but have never noticed this particular item. My question, then (since no one I know of around here counts it that way) is - what rule is JR using to come to this conclusion. As it was said in the thread the other day - JR et all are not meant to supercede the rulebook, but rather to clarify it or support it. I can't find any reasoning (implied, written, or otherwise) in the rulebook to point me toward charging a conference without an actual conference.

I've been reading and re-reading 8.06 and 3.03 and can't seem find a reason for the J/R interpretation. I've looked in the PBUC manual, and it agrees with J/R concerning 8.06(b) that the pitcher be removed from the game but mentions nothing of J/R's interpretation of substituting F1 without a trip.

Does the MLBUM mention this?


Edited to change conference to trip

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

From J/R:

[It is a trip if a manager (or his coach)] ...

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.

Is it a substitution if 2 defensive players switch positions or only if a player not in the game is put into the game?

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Is it a substitution if 2 defensive players switch positions or only if a player not in the game is put into the game?

According to J/R, "A lineup is an ordered listing of nine (or ten, in cases of the use of a designated hitter) players who are in the game as lineup players... A substitute is a player eligable to play in a game."


According to the above definition, I would think that defensive players switching position would not constitute a "substitution." However, a pitcher switching defensive positions is specifically covered by 3.03.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

From J/R:

[It is a trip if a manager (or his coach)] ...

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.

I don't have the J/R, but wouldn't that imply that if you changed pitchers between innings (sent a new one out from the dugout to start an inning), then the coach just got hit with a charged conf on the old pitcher?

I do a lot of 12 - 14 games in my area and the league I usually work for goes by OBR. So this thread really got me thinking because it is quite common for a pitcher to be pulled on the 2nd trip and sent to say right field and the RF comes in to pitch. It is also not unusual for a team to be playing with only 9 or 10 players due to vacations.

So if I understand this correctly, a pitcher can be pulled on the 1st trip, sent to another defensive position and come back the next inning and pitch again. But if he is pulled on the 2nd trip, then he is completely out of the game, and if that drops them down to 8 players, we walk off the field and declare a forfeit (our league rules require 9 defensive players at all times).

Wow, that is certainly going to be news to a lot of LL coaches in this league!

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Fritz

I don't have the J/R, but wouldn't that imply that if you changed pitchers between innings (sent a new one out from the dugout to start an inning), then the coach just got hit with a charged conf on the old pitcher?

(snip)

Wow, that is certainly going to be news to a lot of LL coaches in this league!

1. No, it doesn't.

2. The hands not being part of the bat is news to a lot of LL coaches.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Fritz

I don't have the J/R, but wouldn't that imply that if you changed pitchers between innings (sent a new one out from the dugout to start an inning), then the coach just got hit with a charged conf on the old pitcher?

I believe Bob is misreading the intent of this (see above), but even if he isn't, I don't believe ANYONE would extend it to substituting between innings.

I do a lot of 12 - 14 games in my area and the league I usually work for goes by OBR. So this thread really got me thinking because it is quite common for a pitcher to be pulled on the 2nd trip and sent to say right field and the RF comes in to pitch. It is also not unusual for a team to be playing with only 9 or 10 players due to vacations.

If this is "common" in your area, this is due to poor communication of the rules to them. And since it is common, I would not "spring" this rule on them without making sure they understood the consequences ... but you DO need to retrain them not to visit a pitcher a 2nd time and send him to right field. Whether Bob is right or not, what you describe IS a 2nd visit, and this kid has to sit. What they need to do (in my estimation, and in the estimation of everyone I've ever worked with ... and I must make clear again that this is where Bob and I differ), is approach the UMPIRE (not the mound), and announce that F9 is the new pitcher and F1 is going to right field, and THEN have the kids switch places.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Fritz

So if I understand this correctly, a pitcher can be pulled on the 1st trip, sent to another defensive position and come back the next inning and pitch again. But if he is pulled on the 2nd trip, then he is completely out of the game, and if that drops them down to 8 players, we walk off the field and declare a forfeit (our league rules require 9 defensive players at all times).

Wow, that is certainly going to be news to a lot of LL coaches in this league!

Many youth leagues require only "removal from the mound" on the second trip; not "removal from the game."

And, I seem to recall (but my memory isn't what it used to be; then again, it never was) that Roder (or someone) was specifically asked about the play at hand and indicated that F1 couldn't be moved from the mound to another position after the first visit (because the "move" was a vist, and the second visit requires removal from the game under pure OBR).