Batter out of box

[DG]

I must admit I got bored and skipped the last 4-5 pages of this thread. But I can't understand how anyone could miss a foot planted on the plate at the time contact is made.

I have no doubt I can track a pitch and see a foot on the plate at the same time, they are both right there in front of me. It is not impossible. It is easy.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by DG

I must admit I got bored and skipped the last 4-5 pages of this thread. But I can't understand how anyone could miss a foot planted on the plate at the time contact is made.

I have no doubt I can track a pitch and see a foot on the plate at the same time, they are both right there in front of me. It is not impossible. It is easy.

Well yeah, of course it is easy. Not only is it easy to see, it is impossible not to see.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

That is a straw man argument and you know it.

Joe

No, not really.

" A straw man argument is a rhetorical technique based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent."

[HawkeyeCubP]

Wow. I'm lurking from the softball board, as I often do, and I must admit that this thread is very interesting to me. This is a more common occurrence in softball than it is in baseball, I believe.

I of course yield to those who have expert clinic/training/working experience in baseball - I just wanted to add my own two cents into the mix on this subject:

I would suggest that - at least in softball - it is not something that is looked at simultaneously with the pitch passing through/not through the strike zone and/or striking the bat - but that it is something that is seen in the approximately 1/4 second immediately following the bat striking the ball - and that it is also, often peripherally detectable whether or not there is a chance the batter will do such a thing (based on a number of variables). This happens often in slow pitch softball (it is a common pitching strategy to make a batter with 2 strikes or an anxious batter to either reach to a pitch that is well outside or step out and away with the front foot to ably contact a pitch that is well inside), and occassionally in fast pitch softball (slap hitters). If it's obvious, it's usually fairly easy to see, at least for me. And if it's both obvious and agregious, I call it.

I realize there are multiple variables between the two/three games that make calling pitches and seeing this violation different - i.e. you want to see a bullet ripped down the line for fair/foul ruling, line drives caught or trapped, shots that hit runners for runner interference, etc. But I would also submit that the bases, and therefore defensive players and offensive baserunners are also further away from the batter (and the ball coming off his/her bat) in baseball.

I would also submit that I've previously worked two years of LL baseball (mostly 14 year-olds) - again - I do not claim to have much knowledge of baseball still, and did actually make this call on a RH batter who squared and bunted - with his right foot completed on and across the plate. I called dead ball, etc., explained why he was out (he was confused - and not a very good bunter - or player in general) and as it was the 3rd out, heard his coach further explain to him what he should try to do differently next time as he was leading him back into the dugout - he had seen it too.

So anyway, my shortened thought is: Glance immediately after the bat hits the ball - not at the same time. Just a thought. I look forward to your responses.

As always, a pleasure to read the baseball board.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by Tim C

38 years, 3801 games and I have never considered calling this "violation."

Regards,

29 years of umpiring, 4000+ games, and I have called it, probably once or twice per year; yet I have never had an ejection. I call it when it's so obvious that the guy in center field can see it. Example of an argument: "Now how the hell could you have seen that, Randy?!?" My reply: "Bill, when your batter runs up to bunt the ball and is halfway to the pitcher's mound when he makes contact with the ball, it's rather easy to call."

End of discussion.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by UMP25

"Bill, when your batter runs up to bunt the ball and is halfway to the pitcher's mound when he makes contact with the ball, it's rather easy to call."

I knew I was deprived. I have never seen a player do that. And you say it happens twice a year in your games?
Wow.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Wow. I'm lurking from the softball board, as I often do, and I must admit that this thread is very interesting to me. This is a more common occurrence in softball than it is in baseball, I believe.

I of course yield to those who have expert clinic/training/working experience in baseball - I just wanted to add my own two cents into the mix on this subject:

I would suggest that - at least in softball - it is not something that is looked at simultaneously with the pitch passing through/not through the strike zone and/or striking the bat - but that it is something that is seen in the approximately 1/4 second immediately following the bat striking the ball - and that it is also, often peripherally detectable whether or not there is a chance the batter will do such a thing (based on a number of variables). This happens often in slow pitch softball (it is a common pitching strategy to make a batter with 2 strikes or an anxious batter to either reach to a pitch that is well outside or step out and away with the front foot to ably contact a pitch that is well inside), and occassionally in fast pitch softball (slap hitters). If it's obvious, it's usually fairly easy to see, at least for me. And if it's both obvious and agregious, I call it.

I realize there are multiple variables between the two/three games that make calling pitches and seeing this violation different - i.e. you want to see a bullet ripped down the line for fair/foul ruling, line drives caught or trapped, shots that hit runners for runner interference, etc. But I would also submit that the bases, and therefore defensive players and offensive baserunners are also further away from the batter (and the ball coming off his/her bat) in baseball.

I would also submit that I've previously worked two years of LL baseball (mostly 14 year-olds) - again - I do not claim to have much knowledge of baseball still, and did actually make this call on a RH batter who squared and bunted - with his right foot completed on and across the plate. I called dead ball, etc., explained why he was out (he was confused - and not a very good bunter - or player in general) and as it was the 3rd out, heard his coach further explain to him what he should try to do differently next time as he was leading him back into the dugout - he had seen it too.

So anyway, my shortened thought is: Glance immediately after the bat hits the ball - not at the same time. Just a thought. I look forward to your responses.

As always, a pleasure to read the baseball board.

1. So you know where the batter's foot was after contact with the ball. We should change the rule to read "the batter is out when his bat makes contat with a pitched ball if his foot is completely out of the batter's box within a second or so after said contact."

2. After a batter hits a pitched ball, I have more important things to do than take my eye off the ball, namely, keeping my eye on the ball, especially on a bunt attempt.

[spots101]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I knew I was deprived. I have never seen a player do that. And you say it happens twice a year in your games?
Wow.

No smarta$$, it's called an exaggeration. His point, since you can't seem to get it is this. Even with some of you big wigs on this site saying you would never "see" this violation he is saying that some of them are too easy to "see". Can't teach an old dog new tricks I guess.

[spots101]

Originally Posted by GarthB

1. So you know where the batter's foot was after contact with the ball. We should change the rule to read "the batter is out when his bat makes contat with a pitched ball if his foot is completely out of the batter's box within a second or so after said contact."

I've got a better question. Why don't we get rid of the violation altogether since some of you choose not to call it.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by spots101

I've got a better question. Why don't we get rid of the violation altogether since some of you choose not to call it.

I don't believe anyone said they chose not to call it. I could be wrong, I didn't go back and read all the posts. But, what I believe is being said is that some don't see the foot at the time of contact, which is a prime requirement to enforce the rule.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by spots101

No smarta$$, it's called an exaggeration. His point, since you can't seem to get it is this. Even with some of you big wigs on this site saying you would never "see" this violation he is saying that some of them are too easy to "see". Can't teach an old dog new tricks I guess.

I'm sorry. I'm not familiar enough with the poster to know when he is exaggerating. Thanks for pointing that out, no wonder I've never seen that happen.

[SanDiegoSteve]

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by UMP25

29 years of umpiring, 4000+ games, and I have called it, probably once or twice per year; yet I have never had an ejection. I call it when it's so obvious that the guy in center field can see it. Example of an argument: "Now how the hell could you have seen that, Randy?!?" My reply: "Bill, when your batter runs up to bunt the ball and is halfway to the pitcher's mound when he makes contact with the ball, it's rather easy to call."

End of discussion.

Of course it is easy to call and see. No matter what Jocko Conlon and his disciples here say, it is impossible NOT to see sometimes.

For anyone with any amount of experience to say he has NEVER seen it makes the BS detector beep quite vociferously.

Joe

[TussAgee11]

This thread is just becoming silly. Garth - if I'm off ignore and you see this - are you honestly saying that when tracking the pitch you are unable to see if the batter's foot is in the opposite batter's box when bunting?

It's like saying a LL ump can't tell when a runner leaves early because he can't possibly look at both at the same time.

What about a tag up. Sure, you can line it up, but you can't see both at the same time, your vision needs to adjust on the distances you are looking at. Do you choose to ignore runner's leaving early because "you can't tell?"

C'mon.

[3appleshigh]

Well Garth if the rules require you to be aware of this problem, and you cannot see it, I guess YOU ARE NOT DOING YOUR JOB!

I think you should go out and get the HSM, the improved vision might help one as myopic as you.