hit batter

refjef40 · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 05, 2003, 12:10pm

Had a j.v. game with one man and a chest level inside pitch with good speed hits the batter in the elbow.The girl didn't avoid much except for a second small turn at the last minute.It has been my experience that lower level girls don't react real fast to a hard slightly inside pitch like that.I felt she made the effort to her ability and gave her first.The defensive coach comes out and says she made no effort to get out of the way.I said I felt for this level of ball she made a reasonable effort.So coach has to tell me that he has coached travel ball for seven years(who cares)and that I'm changing the rules for this level.I said coach the rules are always the same but I have to take in account the level of the players into my judgement.He shook his head and walked off.I realize now I should have said in judgement she made an effort and left it there but does everyone agree with my principle argument?

5 sport ref · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 05, 2003, 12:55pm

IMHO you made the right call. I tend to err on the side of safety and any movement to avoid getting hit is trying to get out of the way. In many games the pitchers overmatch the batters and the batters my have slower reactions.

I think you made the right call.

Dakota · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 05, 2003, 01:15pm

I agree - right call. The rule doesn't say "effective" effort, just effort. Turning to protect is enough.

I also agree that judgment changes with level. Good example: infield fly and "ordinary effort."

IRISHMAFIA · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 05, 2003, 02:05pm

Quote:

Originally posted by refjef40
Had a j.v. game with one man and a chest level inside pitch with good speed hits the batter in the elbow.The girl didn't avoid much except for a second small turn at the last minute.It has been my experience that lower level girls don't react real fast to a hard slightly inside pitch like that.I felt she made the effort to her ability and gave her first.The defensive coach comes out and says she made no effort to get out of the way.I said I felt for this level of ball she made a reasonable effort.So coach has to tell me that he has coached travel ball for seven years(who cares)

Oh, I care. If he was coaching "travel ball" for seven years, that means his ignorance of the game is more widespread than those who have coached travel ball for six years! I wonder what level of travel ball he coached?

Quote:

and that I'm changing the rules for this level.I said coach the rules are always the same but I have to take in account the level of the players into my judgement.He shook his head and walked off.I realize now I should have said in judgement she made an effort and left it there but does everyone agree with my principle argument?

Some of the three most powerful words an umpire can use, "In my judgment".

Sounds like you were all over this one and the coach may need to travel a bit more to learn what the hell he is talking about!

CecilOne · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 05, 2003, 02:37pm

While I agree that 7 years of travel ball or maybe 7 months gives a coach more credibility about the game than 1 year of JV, his saying it is an attempt to intimidate or insult and he better hope I'm not in a really bad mood, especially with no partner.
Of course, most of us could respond with how many years we've been umpiring travel ball plus HS, but we're not supposed to insult them either. If you really want to lay it on, point out that umpiring mechanics require us to stand near the play and not call pitches from the dugout. Anyway, as I often say, knowing the game does not mean knowing officiating the game.

refjef40 · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 05, 2003, 03:18pm

Tom,funny you mentioned level and infield fly rule.Same one man j.v. game and freezing cold with about a 25mph wind blowing straight in.The other coach whines because a pop-up that blows down from what should have been center lands 20 feet from his secondbaseman should be a infield fly!I tell him in this weather I have to use my judgement and its going to be tough for anything to be a infield fly.He says i'm wrong because the rule is clear on a i.f.So I said we agree to dis agree and he sits down.What are you going to do?

oatmealqueen · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 05, 2003, 07:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota

I also agree that judgment changes with level.

We can practice this, but should never say it to a coach.

CecilOne · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 05, 2003, 08:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by refjef40
... snip ... The other coach whines because a pop-up that blows down from what should have been center lands 20 feet from his secondbaseman should be a infield fly!... snip ...

Are you telling us that another defensive coach complained about not getting an infield fly call? With the ball 20 feet from the 2nd baseman, was it either too far away to catch or did it land too far away to pick up and double up a runner or two.

Dakota · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Apr 06, 2003, 01:19am

Quote:

Originally posted by refjef40
...The other coach whines because a pop-up that blows down from what should have been center lands 20 feet from his secondbaseman should be a infield fly!

Echoing Cecil... I never listen to a complaint from the defense regarding a no-call on the IFR. The rule is there to protect the offense, not to give a cheap out to the defense.

I tell them that if they had managed to turn a double play out of the supposed IF that wasn't called, then the offense may have a beef, but the defense? Never.

refjef40 · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Apr 06, 2003, 10:49am

the ball was to far away and I don't even think secondbase even knew where the ball was!The coach tried to say that the runner who ran straight to second distracted her so it should have been a i.f.By the way they actully got a out at second as the girl rounded and got tagged.

IRISHMAFIA · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Apr 06, 2003, 01:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by refjef40
Tom,funny you mentioned level and infield fly rule.Same one man j.v. game and freezing cold with about a 25mph wind blowing straight in.The other coach whines because a pop-up that blows down from what should have been center lands 20 feet from his secondbaseman should be a infield fly!I tell him in this weather I have to use my judgement and its going to be tough for anything to be a infield fly.He says i'm wrong because the rule is clear on a i.f.So I said we agree to dis agree and he sits down.What are you going to do?

You: Coach, do you know what constitutes an infield fly?

Coach: Damn right, I've been coaching for (enter number here) years!

You: So, coach, you are aware that it must be a pop-up which can be caught by an infielder with normal effort, right?

Coach: Of course, I knew that!

You: Well, since you didn't have an infielder anywhere near that ball, which one did you think was going to grab it with ordinary effort? Coach? Okay, let's play ball.

[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Apr 6th, 2003 at 02:05 PM]

CecilOne · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Apr 06, 2003, 02:00pm

You are SOOO instructive.

Andy · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 07, 2003, 11:26am

On a hit batter, it doesn't take much for me to judge that the batter made an attempt to get out of the way. I apply that to all levels that I work. I have also been told that "freezing" can be a legimate attempt to avoid being hit.

That being said, when a batter is crowding the plate, it reminds me to be aware of where the batter may be hit in relation to the strike zone.