OBR - You Make the Call

[GarthB]

Greg asks: Where is Fed does it say that you can make a live ball appeal?

Right here, Greg:

8-2 Pen. (New) - Replace rule with:. . .For failure to touch a base (advancing or returning), or failure to tag up as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball, the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team. The defense may appeal during a live ball immediately following the play and before a pitch, legal or illegal. A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early. A dead ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too soon. Appeals must be made (1) before the next legal or illegal pitch, (2) at the end of an inning, before the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory, or (3) on the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpires leave the field of play. NOTE: When a play, by its very nature is imminent and is obvious to the offense, defense, and umpire(s), no verbal appeal is necessary (e.g. runner attempting to retouch a base that was missed, or a failure to tag up and a throw has been made to that base or plate while a play is in progress).

[Bfair]

Greg, understand that in current Fed rule the offense can always make a live ball appeal. However, they really don't need to because the official should declare the runner out at the end of playing action if he saw the appeal.

The only benefit in the offense actually making the live ball appeal could occur if they could make the appeal play and get a final out before a run scored on a timing play.

Of course, it has been posted the Fed rules regarding appeals are about to change for the 2002 Season. We will need to wait for the formal changes to be incorporated into their rules and call the plays by the latest rules revisions.

Just my opinion,

Freix

[GarthB]

Freix writes:
Of course, it has been posted the Fed rules regarding appeals are about to change for the 2002 Season. We will need to wait for the formal changes to be incorporated into their rules and call the plays by the latest rules revisions.

Just my opinion,
_______

According to Indianaoplis, the changes have been incorporated into their rules. Now, then if what you meant is you feel you need to see it in the rulebook, that won't happen for a few months yet.

However, the rule has been adopted.

[jicecone]

I really think you guys need to take some time off. First we are crediting a guy with jumping over the catchers hand, going back to the plate to touch because his teammates are telling him to and then this ingenious ballplayer is going to reason all this out and decide. """I must step back because of other runners on base"""". YEA SURE Too many games!!! Take some time off!!!!

[Patrick Szalapski]

Jicecone, there are several reasons we discuss plays that, at first glance, don't ever happen. When we determine rulings on crazy plays, we exercise our knowledge of definitions, rules, interpretations, spirit, and intent to come up with the correct ruling. Simply look at the different issues arose from this situation:

• When is a runner considered "out of the baseline"?
• When can such a runner be called out?
• When can a viable appeal be made? What is the relevance of relaxed/unrelaxed action in appeals?
• When can a runner who missed a base make a valid touch?
• When must a runner be tagged on an appeal?
• When can two opinions on a ruling both be correct, via 9.01(c)?
• When can a run score?
• When is a runner considered to have passed another runner?

If you think these issues are not important for umpires to know, you must not be an umpire.

When an impractical scenario is presented, we always want to keep in mind the practical issues related to that scenario. That, my friend, is the beauty of these internet boards. Better umpiring is the result--not because we know how to rule when "R3 tries to score on a base hit, but the throw to home..." but because we know why we rule that way.

P-Sz

[jicecone]

PAT, Your right and your wrong. Discussion is good.Ive umpired over 15 yrs. Reality, and an understanding of the intent of the rules and how to apply them is what teaches others to be decisive, not 250 cases of what if. That teaches confusion and from that stems undecisiveness, exactly what we dont want officials to be.

Lighten up, it's then end of the season. GOOd LucK

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by jicecone
PAT, Your right and your wrong. Discussion is good.Ive umpired over 15 yrs. Reality, and an understanding of the intent of the rules and how to apply them is what teaches others to be decisive, not 250 cases of what if. That teaches confusion and from that stems undecisiveness, exactly what we dont want officials to be.

Lighten up, it's then end of the season. GOOd LucK

Jicecone:

'Undecisiveness' [sic], exactly what we dont [sic] want officials to be." That's a great bit of advice. But, unless you have considered IN ADVANCE those casebook situations that arise from time to time, I suggest it will be hard to be both decisive AND right.

Pat laid out a great list of issues that impinge on this thread. You dismiss them by telling him to lighten up. (You told someone else to take some time off.)

Amazing!

I am reminded of the golfer who consistently slices the ball. Finally, someone says: "You need some practice." He says: "I practice every day." Someone says: "No matter how many times you swing the club, if you're doing it wrong, you won't get any better." Umpiring is sort of like that. You've been umpiring 15 years, you say, and....

Carl Childress

[Edited by Carl Childress on Aug 7th, 2001 at 10:55 PM]

[DJWickham]

Originally posted by Carl Childress
I am reminded of the golfer who consistently slices the ball.

An apt metaphor. A few years ago, I went to a golf pro about my slice. He told me that he couldn't cure a slice. He then added that he could teach me to hook, and that he could cure a hook.

I'm still learning.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by jicecone
[Lighten up, it's then end of the season. GOOd LucK
[/B]

Thanks for the backup, Carl. In addition to Carl's points, Jicecone, I wasn't saying that these boards and "what if" discussion are the only way to better umpiring, only that they help a great deal. There's no substitute for experience, of course.

I think we agree on that much, anyway.

Then you said, "lighten up!" That's always good advice, eh?

P-Sz

[rex]

Hay Irish kid,

You gonna get your sheep skin this year? #1 says 2003 before we have a doctor in the family. Damn I hope I live that long.

rex

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by rex
You gonna get your sheep skin this year? #1 says 2003 before we have a doctor in the family.

Yes, I am, but more meaningful perhaps is the doeskin I bought last year! That WestVest mask is holding up well. Anyway, good luck.

P-Sz

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Gre144

So are you saying if R3 misses home plate he is automatically out if the catcher with the ball touches home plate(an appeal play) even if a force doesn't exist? Where is Fed does it say that you can make a live ball appeal?

Greg

Even before the new rule (to be effective next year) bthe FED, the defense can make a live-ball appeal. See the last two sentences of 8-2 Penalty.

[jicecone]

OK Carl and Pat you WIN!

I blew the call and have to suck it up!

Mabey MY OWN, end of the season blahs should not have been taken out on anyone else. I apologize.

I do belive that sometimes these boards get over discussed however, this too can be positive.

Carl you are absolutely correct.

and.... I still get it wrong too. That is exactly why I have read and re-read every baseball book you have written. (and others) It is reference material that helps me understand how I might handle the situation a little better the next time. I guess discussion could be categorized in the same manner.

You are truly a man of your word.

Chapter Six "Major Crimes" No. 42. "51 ways to Ruin a Baseball Game"

Thankyou

[JJ]

Just so you know, jicecone, I started this thread because this play in fact did happen to me this summer. I was trying to pick a few other brains as to the ruling and it's justification. It's baseball - never say never!

[Patrick Szalapski]

Thanks, Jicecone, for the follow-up. I knew we weren't that far apart. Have a good one!

P-Sz