Clarification please

[PGCougar]

Here's the sitch - 16 YO travel ball with NFHS rules:

One out, runners on second and third. Batter hits fly ball to Right-Center, RF makes a great diving catch, runner at third tags, but runner at second runs to third assuming ball won't be caught. RF throws the ball all the way to third, third throws the ball back to second base where the runner was called out for the double play.

After a discussion between HP and field umpires, they ruled that the run scored. They stated it was a "troubled" play - saying the throw was made to third before it was relayed to second, therefore the run was allowed to score despite the force play at second for the third out of the inning.

Could someone please help clarify the call and point me in the right direction to appropriate references? I appreciate everyone's help. I hope I explained the sitch clearly, and apologize in advance since I'm a basketball person and only a spectator in baseball matters.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by PGCougar

Here's the sitch - 16 YO travel ball with NFHS rules:

One out, runners on second and third. Batter hits fly ball to Right-Center, RF makes a great diving catch, runner at third tags, but runner at second runs to third assuming ball won't be caught. RF throws the ball all the way to third, third throws the ball back to second base where the runner was called out for the double play.

After a discussion between HP and field umpires, they ruled that the run scored. They stated it was a "troubled" play - saying the throw was made to third before it was relayed to second, therefore the run was allowed to score despite the force play at second for the third out of the inning.

Could someone please help clarify the call and point me in the right direction to appropriate references? I appreciate everyone's help. I hope I explained the sitch clearly, and apologize in advance since I'm a basketball person and only a spectator in baseball matters.

The umpires got the call right for wrong reasons. This is a simple time play - did the run score before the third out was made? Answer yes, score the run.

The play at 2B is not a force play; it is an appeal play. That seems to be the primary error in the umpires' erroneous explanation; however, the additional explanation that their ruling was based on some kind of "troubled" play ruling or interpretation, was pulled entirely from the umpire's nether region.

[mrm21711]

Dave is 100% correct. There is a case play in the NFHS case book that is very similar to your situation:

8.2.2 Situation B

Bases loaded and one out, fly ball to center field and caught. Runner on third legally tags and scores, but runner on second leaves second too early. Defense verbally appeals after time is granted.

Ruling: The runner from third scores. Remember, this is NOT a force out as Dave stated.

[PGCougar]

Thanks for the help and references.

Just to clarify further, the throw to second was not appealed per se. The runner at second left the bag at the crack of the bat and was halfway down the baseline to third on the fly, made a judgement that the ball wouldn't be caught and proceeded to third. As the ball was caught, the third base coach yelled at him to run back to second as the ball was arriving to third. The third baseman then threw the ball back to second beating the runner racing back and was called out when the throw made it there before he got back. I assume the play was live the entire time so I don't think it was appealed as no time was granted. Immediately following the called out, the two officials conferred and ruled the run was allowed to score.

Does this make any difference? Again, please pardon my ignorance - I'm trying to learn.

[mbyron]

No, this doesn't make a difference. It's still an appeal play on R2, and the run scores.

[PGCougar]

OK folks, I think I have it. Thanks for the quick responses! I appreciate it.

[DG]

You don't have to verbalize an appeal if it is apparent that the defense has recognized that a runner has left too soon and can be made out by throwing the ball to base he left too early from. The action of the defense is considered an appeal, and especially if it is obvious to everybody.

Prior to the play the umpires probably signaled each other that a timing play is possible, with runner on 2B and 2 outs, but the play more likely to result in a timing play is the runner on 2B scoring as the batter is thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double. But this is nonetheless a timing play, run scores.

[SAump]

A failure to TAG UP as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball. The runner may be called out for leaving a base on a caught fly ball before the ball is first touched only if an appeal is made by the defensive team.

A live-ball appeal may be made by a defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner committing the violation or by touching the base that was missed or left too early.

When a play by its very nature is imminent and is obvious to the offense, defense and umpire(s), no verbal appeal is necessary, e.g. ... a failure to TAG UP and a throw has been made to that base or plate while a play is in progress.