Clarification POD 5-3

[sm_bbcoach]

Play take from POD 5-3:
K's ball 4/12 from R-45. K8 punt is rolling on the R-16 when an IW is blown R76 blocked K84 in the back on the R-22 before the IW.

Ruling given: If penality is declines, the IW during the loose ball dictiates replay of down. (I agree!)
If penality is accepted, the fould negates the IW and results in a PREVIOUS SPOT enforcement.

If I read this right, K gets the ball back for 4/2 from R-35? This seems to me to be a tripple -whammy on R due to an official mistake. K gets the ball back (after kicking it away. I thought PSk eliminated this messed up thinking), they get the 10 yards for the block in back (ok but it is #2 against R) AND get a chance for a 2 yd plunge for 1/10. Seems to me a huge hit for R all for an official mistake.

Why, then, does the penality negate the IW? It would seem to me that if accepted, either PSK should coe into play and R keeps ball but looses 10 yrd (1/2 distance) OR you replay down w/ NO yardage markoff.

Please clear me up on this .

[Bob Mc]

Boy am I happy to know that I was not the only one confused! With the new and improved clarification on PSK from NF...Clarification has been made that a post-scrimmage kick situation begins with the snap ...this play is just as clear as mud.

[jack015]

[/QUOTE] I thought PSk eliminated this messed up thinking), they get the 10 yards for the block in back (ok but it is #2 against R) AND get a chance for a 2 yd plunge for 1/10. Seems to me a huge hit for R all for an official mistake.

Why, then, does the penality negate the IW? It would seem to me that if accepted, either PSK should coe into play and R keeps ball but looses 10 yrd (1/2 distance) OR you replay down w/ NO yardage markoff.

Please clear me up on this .
[/B][/QUOTE]

No PSK in this situation. To have a PSK enforcement, R must be in possession when the down ends. The down ended when the IW happened and the ball was loose a that moment.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by jack015
No PSK in this situation. To have a PSK enforcement, R must be in possession when the down ends. The down ended when the IW happened and the ball was loose a that moment.

REPLY: Just one clarification on PSK...there is no requirement that R be in player/team possession when the down ends. The requirements is that K not be in team possession when the down ends. Those two things are not quite synonymous and the Fed goes out of its way to confuse the issue. And whether or not the ball is loose has no practical bearing on whether PSK applies.

[ljudge]

There are a few situations that could yield nasty results due to an IW. If it was 4th and 2 instead of 12 late in a tied game - yikes!

I think one of the worst is if K was kicking from his own end zone and he bobbled the snap and needed to scramble. If a teammate holds for example out in the field of play and the IW sounds before the kick is made the officials pretty much dictated a safety. This is a running play enforced from the end of the run. Double yikes!!!

What defensive team would turn down that penalty? I think there should be something put in the IW rule that would disallow this kind of anomaly from happening.

[STEVED21]

Originally posted by ljudge
There are a few situations that could yield nasty results due to an IW. If it was 4th and 2 instead of 12 late in a tied game - yikes!

I think one of the worst is if K was kicking from his own end zone and he bobbled the snap and needed to scramble. If a teammate holds for example out in the field of play and the IW sounds before the kick is made the officials pretty much dictated a safety. This is a running play enforced from the end of the run. Double yikes!!!

What defensive team would turn down that penalty? I think there should be something put in the IW rule that would disallow this kind of anomaly from happening.

I would try to find a way to say the foul occured before the kicker got control of the ball so it would be enforced as a loose ball play from the previous spot.

[sm_bbcoach]

What is the correct ruling on this play?

explain PLEASE the logic of the foul (if accepted) negates the IW and K keeps the ball 4/2 in this situation as it results in a previous spot enforcement.

How woudl you explain this to a coach of R? If I am the coach, there is a good chance I would be tossed out of the game because of the GROSS injustice in this play.

This is a PSK foul correct? They, why/how does K get the ball back due to an officials mess up?

[Jim S]

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
Play take from POD 5-3:

Ruling given: If penality is declines, the IW during the loose ball dictiates replay of down. (I agree!)
If penality is accepted, the fould negates the IW and results in a PREVIOUS SPOT enforcement.

Why, then, does the penality negate the IW? It would seem to me that if accepted, either PSK should coe into play and R keeps ball but looses 10 yrd (1/2 distance) OR you replay down w/ NO yardage markoff.

From where did you get this?

I want to see their justification. I would agree that the choices are to decline the foul, thereby replaying the down at the previous spot (no foul yardage, it was declined.
Or, to accept the foul, which is a PSK foul, ignore the IW rules, and enforce from, in this case, the spot the ball became dead. Result B 1&10 from the B8

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by Jim S

From where did you get this?

I want to see their justification. I would agree that the choices are to decline the foul, thereby replaying the down at the previous spot (no foul yardage, it was declined.
Or, to accept the foul, which is a PSK foul, ignore the IW rules, and enforce from, in this case, the spot the ball became dead. Result B 1&10 from the B8

This was the Play of the Day for 5-3-04. I have sent 2 e-mails to them asking for a justification, but no reply .

It just does not make ANY sence at all!

Can anyone from NF help on this. Usually, if POD make a mistake they will own up to it the next day or so.

[SeanWest]

I don't have a full NFHS rule book with me to try and sort out all the details and quote rules but what I do know from NFHS supplemental information and the list of new rule revisions is that although the *POSSIBILITY* of a PSK situation begins at the snap, you cannot have a PSK foul unless Team R ends up in possession of the ball (this is the first point of a 4-Point checklist they gave to determine whether you have a PSK situation in a PowerPoint presention on PSK for 2003). In this case they do not, the ball is loose at the time of the IW.

From that point (I wish I could look it up) it seems as though you would have to enforce from the previous spot since K was last in possession.

So...
- K has to get the ball because this is not a PSK situation because R never got possession.

- The ball has to go back to the previous spot because the ball was loose at the time of the IW.

- R has to be penalized for committing a foul.

Given all that, I think you have to give K the ball, 4/2 from R-35.

I can completely agree that the IW hurts R in this situation but the enforcement is correct based on the rules as they are written. To enforce it any other way is to ignore the rule book (and also would require some mind reading on the part of the official - if there's an IW and the play is not allowed to continue how do you *KNOW* R would have gained possession of the loose ball and not K - somehow?)

Anyway, there's my take on it. I think the trick to this play is that PSK does not come in to effect based on the way things played out. If it had been allowed to continue, most likely R would have gained possession and then it WOULD have been a PSK foul... but that requires speculation.

-Sean---

[Theisey]

I see no reason this should be enforced any differently under NFHS rules than how it is handled under NCAA rules.

That NCAA ruling is the Previous Spot is the enforcement spot and the ball must be returned to that spot and either rekicked because it was not in player possession at the time of the IW. The foul against team-B, is enforced at the point. If Team-A get s first down out of this, then that just too bad for team-B.

An IW in essesnce negates what would have been a PSK enforcment foul.

Bottom line is IW are bad for everyone including the official that keeps the whistle in is mouth or is in a bigh hurry to kill a play.

[SeanWest]

I agree with you Theisey and should have mentioned that before... the enforcement from the previous spot may hurt R... but not strictly enforcing the rules hurts K.

Neither team deserves to be penalized when the bottom line is that the real problem is the official who jumped the gun with the whistle.

-Sean---

[Jim S]

Originally posted by SeanWest
you cannot have a PSK foul unless Team R ends up in possession of the ball (this is the first point of a 4-Point checklist they gave to determine whether you have a PSK situation in a PowerPoint presention on PSK for 2003). In this case they do not, the ball is loose at the time of the IW.


So...
- K has to get the ball because this is not a PSK situation because R never got possession.

-Sean---

Sean, sorry but you are incorrect on both your points here. First the rule does not state that R must be in possesion at the end of the down for PSK to apply. It says that K shall not be in possession. Take the kick that goes OB, into the EZ, or becomes dead in the field when not in player possession. ALL still qualify for PSK rules even though by you are saying that R never got possession since the ball was still loose in all these cases.

Next, the team possession changes under PSK when the ball is kicked. See 'Football Fundamentals' I.3 on page 66 of the 2003 rulebook

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by Jim S

Sean, sorry but you are incorrect on both your points here. First the rule does not state that R must be in possesion at the end of the down for PSK to apply. It says that K shall not be in possession. Take the kick that goes OB, into the EZ, or becomes dead in the field when not in player possession. It should still qualify for PSK rules even though by you are saying that R never got possession since the ball was still loose in all these cases.

Next, the team possession changes under PSK when the ball is kicked. See 'Football Fundamentals' I.3 on page 66 of the 2003 rulebook

Thant was my point wiht my last post given the PSK. K surrerndered possesion whenthey kicked the ball & it crossed the ENZ. Yes, I agree that bad items will occur wiht an over-zellious official.

BUT, HOW DOES THIS PLAY GET ENFORCED? Is it a previous spot enforcement, or is it truly a PSK enforcement if accepted?

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Jim S


Next, the team possession changes under PSK when the ball is kicked. See 'Football Fundamentals' I.3 on page 66 of the 2003 rulebook

REPLY: Jim, I've heard that the Federation is changing FF I.3 to the way it was before. There was never any intention to change the definition of 'team possession.' According to what I've heard, the definition of team possession--as written--holds for scrimmage kicks, i.e. K is still in team possession during the kick. PSK is just an exception (oops...can I say that in Federation??) to normal possession enforcement rules.