Mechanics And Positioning

[RoyGardner]

A question on mechanics to our brother baseball officials. As a football official we're always stressing the need to "keep the play in front of you" and to pay close attention to the various angles in your positioning to avoid angles where you're "blocked out" of a play.

I saw for the 2nd time in 2 days during a MLB game (Phillies @ Red Sox) where the 2nd base umpire who was positioned in the infield got straightlined on a steal play at 2nd and missed an out call. What is the rationale for positioning the umpire inside (vs on the outfield side)? It would seem that the chances of being screened out of a call and/or having trouble picking up the ball as it comes from behind you (via catcher's throw) would be significantly less if the 2nd base umpire was located in a position to see runner, fielder and ball all coming to the base at the same time. When the replay was shown (closeup) runner was clearly out, but on 2nd replay from a home plate area camera, player applying tag was directly between the U and the runner where U had virtually no chance of seeing the tag. Would have had perfect view (at least on this play) if in same relative location on the outfield side of the basepath.

[briancurtin]

being on the inside gives you a great look, in my opinion, on the steal play at 2nd base. if you were behind the play, such as the positioning a little league umpire would get on a small diamond -- you have a runner sliding in, ball comes in on the other side of the runner (that you cant see), tag goes down...wheres the tag? wheres the ball? being in the inside of the diamond, you see the ball into the glove, see the glove go down, and you are on the side of the tag to see it.

i dont have trouble picking up the ball on a steal play. pretend the ball has a fish hook on it and you watch it and let it hook you into the play. it brings you right into whats going on and you see the tag right there.

it is possible that he just missed the call. it happens.

[Always Wright]

I tend to agree with Roy. I think you would get a better look at the steal play at 2nd if you were on the outfield side of the base. Let's think about the position we take on a play at any base when the throw is coming from the outfield. Do we go to the OF side of the base and take the throw over our shoulder? No, we stay on the IF side and see the throw and the runner coming together. When we take plays at the plate, we usually go to the 1st or 3rd base line extended - in foul territory. We don't move in front of the plate - unless you're Bruce Froemming.

Way back in the old days when AL umps were still using the balloon, they always stayed on the OF side of 2nd base no matter what runners may or may not be on base. If I am not mistaken, I think the reason for being on the IF side of 2nd, especially with a runner on 1st, is to get a better look at the force play - you definitely get a better look on that play from there. Then again, I may be mistaken. A lot of coaches and players think I often am.

Chris Wright

[GarthB]

From which side (inside or outside) can you follow the throw from F2 or F1 and see the ball to the glove and the tag, or lack thereof, and still see where the ball is prior to making a call?

Got it? Good, stand there.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

I tend to agree with Roy. I think you would get a better look at the steal play at 2nd if you were on the outfield side of the base. Let's think about the position we take on a play at any base when the throw is coming from the outfield. Do we go to the OF side of the base and take the throw over our shoulder? No, we stay on the IF side and see the throw and the runner coming together. When we take plays at the plate, we usually go to the 1st or 3rd base line extended - in foul territory. We don't move in front of the plate - unless you're Bruce Froemming.

Way back in the old days when AL umps were still using the balloon, they always stayed on the OF side of 2nd base no matter what runners may or may not be on base. If I am not mistaken, I think the reason for being on the IF side of 2nd, especially with a runner on 1st, is to get a better look at the force play - you definitely get a better look on that play from there. Then again, I may be mistaken. A lot of coaches and players think I often am.

Chris Wright

Yup, you're mistaken. They only went outside when there was an R2 with no R1.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

I tend to agree with Roy. I think you would get a better look at the steal play at 2nd if you were on the outfield side of the base. Let's think about the position we take on a play at any base when the throw is coming from the outfield. Do we go to the OF side of the base and take the throw over our shoulder? No, we stay on the IF side and see the throw and the runner coming together. When we take plays at the plate, we usually go to the 1st or 3rd base line extended - in foul territory. We don't move in front of the plate - unless you're Bruce Froemming.

Way back in the old days when AL umps were still using the balloon, they always stayed on the OF side of 2nd base no matter what runners may or may not be on base. If I am not mistaken, I think the reason for being on the IF side of 2nd, especially with a runner on 1st, is to get a better look at the force play - you definitely get a better look on that play from there. Then again, I may be mistaken. A lot of coaches and players think I often am.

Chris Wright

We stay on the inside because more times than not, we have responsibilities at other bases as well.
Example, R1 stealing, throw goes into center field. How is BU going to beat R1 to third if he's outside?

[Always Wright]

Sorry but I am not mistaken. I have been a Yankees fan since the early 1960's. If you can, look at games from back then, or World Series games when an AL ump was working 2nd base and you will indeed see that they worked outside if there was a runner on 1st only. I am 100% certain of that.

Interesting that no one addressed my other point. If taking the throw over our shoulder gives us the best look at a play, why don't we do it on plays when the throw is coming from the outfield? Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating working outside. There are other issues to consider; ctblu40 is correct in stating that we may have to cover another base. Additionally, we are much more likely to get in the 2B or SS's way when working outside. I was simply pointing out that I think Roy made an interesting point. Most of us have probably never had the opportunity to take a steal or pickoff play at 2B from the outside. In 1990, I had the opportunity to work the Junior Olympic Super Series in Coral Springs, FL. It was run by USBF, and their 4-man mechanics at the time called for U2 to work outside if there was R2 only. Let me tell you it felt very weird, but I had a couple of pickoff plays and I thought I had a great look at them. Just something to consider.

Chris Wright

[SanDiegoSteve]

Okay, here is a good reason for being on the inside:

The throw from the catcher is ideally received in front of the base, where the tag is applied to the runner, who is usually on the outfield side of the play. A properly positioned 2nd base umpire sees a)the fielder catch the throw and b)the tag of the runner, without having to look through the runner to do so.

Back in the "old" days, the umpires waved safe like a football referee signals an incomplete pass, by crossing the arms back and forth. They signaled "out" by extending their thumbs from their fists. Would you like to return to those mechanics too?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

Sorry but I am not mistaken. I have been a Yankees fan since the early 1960's. If you can, look at games from back then, or World Series games when an AL ump was working 2nd base and you will indeed see that they worked outside if there was a runner on 1st only. I am 100% certain of that.

Interesting that no one addressed my other point. If taking the throw over our shoulder gives us the best look at a play, why don't we do it on plays when the throw is coming from the outfield? Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating working outside. There are other issues to consider; ctblu40 is correct in stating that we may have to cover another base. Additionally, we are much more likely to get in the 2B or SS's way when working outside. I was simply pointing out that I think Roy made an interesting point. Most of us have probably never had the opportunity to take a steal or pickoff play at 2B from the outside. In 1990, I had the opportunity to work the Junior Olympic Super Series in Coral Springs, FL. It was run by USBF, and their 4-man mechanics at the time called for U2 to work outside if there was R2 only. Let me tell you it felt very weird, but I had a couple of pickoff plays and I thought I had a great look at them. Just something to consider.

Chris Wright

In the 1900-1910 period, MLB worked with 1 umpire. Why don't we go back to that?

The last incarnation of the AL outside mechanic had U2 behind only when there was nobody on first. I could live with that, although I like being inside, personally.

[Tim C]

"Way back in the old days when AL umps were still using the balloon, they always stayed on the OF side of 2nd base no matter what runners may or may not be on base."

This is an incorrect statement.

Regards,

[mcrowder]

You will get straightlined by the runner if you work this play on the outside WAY more than you'll get straightlined by the fielder when working inside. You'll also, even when not straightlined, get blocked by the runner's sliding body, and lose sight of the actual tag, if you work outside.

Inside gives you a view of the ball, and 99% of the time the fielder, the glove, and the runner.

[Always Wright]

I plan on this being my last post to this thread and I will limit my response to the history of the AL using this mechanic of having U2 working outside. Specifically I am addressing Rich and T. I asked a young man in my association to take a look at this thread. He attended the Jim Evans school this past January. He relayed to me that Evans spoke about this very topic in class. In fact, Evans told a story of how, early in his career, he and Dave Phillips were assigned to Nestor Chylak's (a pretty fair umpire) crew. Chylak insisted that U2 work outside. Evans and Phillips did not like that mechanic and worked inside. However, they quickly started complying with Chylak's directives as soon as he started fining them. Since Evans did not join the AL staff until 1971 I hope this puts to rest the idea that major league umps abandoned having U2 work outside in the 1930's. There was at least 1 AL crew still working that way in the 1970's.