Ball 4, You're Out?

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Okay, let's take this to an extreme. Tie game in the bottom of the last inning. A guy is issued a walk - intentional or not. He trots down to first, defense is oblivious to the fact that he walks over to the coach and gives him his batting gloves. He then strides into fair terrirtory and assumes a short lead off. Again, the defense has never witnessed that HE NEVER TOUCHED FIRST BASE. The bases are now loaded and the pitcher gets ready for delivery. Here we go:

1) BALK!

2) Wild pitch and the winning run scores from third.

Okay, Blue what have you got?

[SanDiegoSteve]

A taxi to catch?

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Okay, let's take this to an extreme. Tie game in the bottom of the last inning. A guy is issued a walk - intentional or not. He trots down to first, defense is oblivious to the fact that he walks over to the coach and gives him his batting gloves. He then strides into fair terrirtory and assumes a short lead off. Again, the defense has never witnessed that HE NEVER TOUCHED FIRST BASE. The bases are now loaded and the pitcher gets ready for delivery. Here we go:

1) BALK!

2) Wild pitch and the winning run scores from third.

Okay, Blue what have you got?

Easy. I leave the park.

1 - Once the pitcher commits a balk, they cannot appeal the missed bag.

2 - Once the pitcher pitches the ball, they cannot appeal the missed bag.

[DG]

Originally Posted by UMP25

I beg to differ. My scenario is far likelier than a batter deciding not to go to first base as discussed in this thread. You cannot leave the game before it's completed, and running for the hills to avoid doing one's job is just that.

Well we can agree to disagree. I think the probability of a walk off home run hitter missing a bag is far less than a B-R who does not go to first on a pass ball 4 with runner on 3B who scores with 2 outs, and the defensive coach having the knowledge to bring up the point. I have never seen either.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally Posted by pdxblue

Easy. I leave the park.

1 - Once the pitcher commits a balk, they cannot appeal the missed bag.

2 - Once the pitcher pitches the ball, they cannot appeal the missed bag.

Thank you for paying attention. This question was on a rules test for coaches a couple years ago. I recall two or three of them arguing that the same kid couldn't steal second base legally or that if he was obstructed going back to first, he would be out. Good Lord, I needed a beer that night.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Thank you for paying attention. This question was on a rules test for coaches a couple years ago. I recall two or three of them arguing that the same kid couldn't steal second base legally or that if he was obstructed going back to first, he would be out. Good Lord, I needed a beer that night.

Don't I get an attaboy or pat on the back for my equally correct (and first) answer?

[BenedictArnold]

I am confused by this thread. You said bases loaded and a walk to win the game? Right?

If that is the case, there is no issue of abandoning effort. Once ball four is declared, all runners are forced to advance to a base that they have been rightfully given. Under professional rules, that run scores no matter what the B/R or any other runner does. This is in both the OBR and the MLB umpire manual. Guys you are confusing this with the Robin Ventura homerun. If a player hits a homerun and decided not to run to 1st...no run. The reason is that the runners are not forced/given anything on a base hit. There is always the one exception that these players will do things that make no sense precisely when it costs their team the most.

But seriously, you did this right but for the wrong reasons. Doing nothing was correct. For a quick and easy reference to see this in action, look at any MLB game where the game winning run was walked in. The base umpires are walking toward the lockeroom while the plate guy must stand there and see the touch of the plate.

Don't think too much about this stuff. Abandoning effort is on homeruns and basehits...and those are time plays as of the instant the umpire declares he abandoned his effort. Reaching the dugout is for drop third strikes...once the B/R reaches the top steo of their dugout they are out when they could have advanced to 1st. This is definitely not an appeal play. We are not appealing anything that could prevent that R3 from scoring on this base on balls.

Just thought I woulod help. Good to see the board getting back to the roots that are actually useful. Hopefully this is a sign that the last few months are in the past. Lets keep movinhg in this direction.

BA

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by BenedictArnold

I am confused by this thread. You said bases loaded and a walk to win the game? Right?

If that is the case, there is no issue of abandoning effort. Once ball four is declared, all runners are forced to advance to a base that they have been rightfully given. Under professional rules, that run scores no matter what the B/R or any other runner does.

That is an inaccurate statement. Under OBR, in such cases, only R3 and the batter-runner need advance to and touch their advance bases. If either one does not, then the run coming home can be nullified. Example: Bases loaded walk as you say, batter-runner jumps for joy upon seeing R3 hit home, so the B-R joins the team in running off the field in cheer, never going to first base. This can be ruled "desertion" for the final out. R3's run is negated. Game continues.

Only on non-awards do ALL runners in such bases loaded situations need to touch their advance bases.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by BenedictArnold

I am confused by this thread. You said bases loaded and a walk to win the game? Right?

If that is the case, there is no issue of abandoning effort. Once ball four is declared, all runners are forced to advance to a base that they have been rightfully given. Under professional rules, that run scores no matter what the B/R or any other runner does. This is in both the OBR and the MLB umpire manual. Guys you are confusing this with the Robin Ventura homerun. If a player hits a homerun and decided not to run to 1st...no run. The reason is that the runners are not forced/given anything on a base hit. There is always the one exception that these players will do things that make no sense precisely when it costs their team the most.

But seriously, you did this right but for the wrong reasons. Doing nothing was correct. For a quick and easy reference to see this in action, look at any MLB game where the game winning run was walked in. The base umpires are walking toward the lockeroom while the plate guy must stand there and see the touch of the plate.

Don't think too much about this stuff. Abandoning effort is on homeruns and basehits...and those are time plays as of the instant the umpire declares he abandoned his effort. Reaching the dugout is for drop third strikes...once the B/R reaches the top steo of their dugout they are out when they could have advanced to 1st. This is definitely not an appeal play. We are not appealing anything that could prevent that R3 from scoring on this base on balls.

Just thought I woulod help. Good to see the board getting back to the roots that are actually useful. Hopefully this is a sign that the last few months are in the past. Lets keep movinhg in this direction.

BA

Mr. Arnold, I couldn't disagree more. Please see the bottom of page 33 of the 2006 OBR Sporting News rule book. Rule 4.09(b) states exactly the opposite of what you just cited it as saying, "When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as a result of a base on balls, hit batter, or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base."

For simplicity in remembering the differences in 2 out, bases loaded, game ending situations I offer this;

-bases loaded hit, all runners must advance and touch to remove the force

-bases loaded walk, R3 and B/R must advance and touch to end game. Other runners need not advance.

[UMP25]

Didn't somebody just say that?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BenedictArnold

I am confused by this thread. You said bases loaded and a walk to win the game? Right?

No, the original situation that we have been discussing did not have the bases loaded. There was R3 who scored on a wild pitch which occurred on ball 4. Nobody was forced. The BR never got to 1st base, but joined his teammates near the foul line for a group hug. Abandoment was not the issue, but when to call desertion was. At what point do you just say "later" and walk off the field, or declare the BR out for desertion, has been the point of the discussion.

The bases are loaded in WWTB's situation above, but not prior to his example.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Didn't somebody just say that?

i'd say, "no"....but your above post would render me incorrect. oh well.

[bluezebra]

"Ball 4, You're Out"

There's an old joke regarding this.

Bases loaded. PU: "Ball four, batter's out". Manager: "What do you mean, he's out?" PU: "There's no base open to put him. He's out".

Bob

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

"Ball 4, You're Out"

There's an old joke regarding this.

Bases loaded. PU: "Ball four, batter's out". Manager: "What do you mean, he's out?" PU: "There's no base open to put him. He's out".

Bob

And not a particularly funny joke, either. I hope they didn't try this joke on Last Comic Standing.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by BenedictArnold

I am confused by this thread. You said bases loaded and a walk to win the game? Right?

If that is the case, there is no issue of abandoning effort. Once ball four is declared, all runners are forced to advance to a base that they have been rightfully given. Under professional rules, that run scores no matter what the B/R or any other runner does. This is in both the OBR and the MLB umpire manual. ...BA

Just in case BenedictArnold infected anyone else with his confusion regarding what the rules actually say in regard to this situation, I thought I would post what the MLBUM actually does say on the question (since UMP25 and bobbybanaduck have already clarified the point about what the actual text of the rules says):

4.11 GAME-WINNING RUNS
...
Official Baseball Rule 4.09(b) provides that when the winning run is scored in the last half inning of a regulation game (or in the last half of an extra inning) as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full that forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base. ...

Other than his erroneous comments reagrding abandonment/desertion, I do find myself in agreement with the gist of the rest of his comments.

JM