over rule partners call...

[gsf23]

Regardless of whether or not the plate ump should have been watching the play or not, the field ump is a poor umpire.

He boots the call at first by not being in position, then when he goes for help and is told what happens he basically says I’m not taking the chance of this game going into extra-innings so, ball-game. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if this guy really did see the pulled foot and just blew it off to get the game over with, and then went to you to try to cover his a$$ after getting called on it. I really wish there wasn’t such a shortage of umpires in some areas so guys like this wouldn’t be able to get a job above T-ball.

I think after this game I would be making a call to my assignor and kindly ask not to be partnered with this guy again.

[umpirenj]

I am surprised at the nature of all these posts. Number one: if the BU asks for my opinion and i give it and the BU doesn't take it, why did the BU ask. If the BU. was sure of his/her call then he/she should not have asked. In this case the question was asked so he/she should have change his/her call
Number 2: I think that the PU can do more then one thing at a time. I think that if the PU was at 1B extended the BU would easily see the touches as well as the pulled foot.

Tha's just my 2 cent worth

Phil

[Thom Coste]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

The situation is base loaded with two outs in the bottom of the 7th. The home team is behind 3-2. A routine ground ball to the shortstop but the throw to first was high causing the first baseman to jump. When he landed his foot was a good 8-10 inches to the 2nd base side of the bag ... My partner called "out".

I'm going to ask you Bear, did R2 touch third base? And did R2 run home and touch the plate?

[BEAREF]

Originally Posted by Thom Coste

I'm going to ask you Bear, did R2 touch third base? And did R2 run home and touch the plate?

My position at the time was 1st base line extended. The runner on third did cross & touch home plate. The runner on second stopped on third when the out call was made.

I appreciate all the comments and have learned many things from them. Thanks.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by NIump50

And for what it's worth, I'll guarantee you that you will be the only person watching the foot touch home. Every other eye in the park is going to be locked on to first. So even if he misses the plate by an inch or two you'll be the only one knowing. In the meantime you can explain to the coach you didn't see the play, but be assured coach I know the staus of r3 and home plate. I'm sure the losing team, after being rung up on a blatantly missed tag at first, will take solace knowing R3 touched home plate even if it didn't count.

In the original play, the count was 3-2 with 2 out, bases loaded. So of course the runners would be running on the pitch. If this ground ball is far to the right of F6, then there is a good chance that the BR will be able to beat the throw. If R2 is fast, he might have a chance to score on this play.

I understand that you want to help out with the call at first, but what if R2 cuts third base, he misses it by 10 feet? You're not going to see that because you are staring at first base. You'll be forced to rule safe on the appeal because you didn't see it. I'm sure the defensive team will take solace knowing that you were right on top of that pulled foot instead of noticing runner miss a base by 10 feet.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by umpirenj

Number 2: I think that the PU can do more then one thing at a time. I think that if the PU was at 1B extended the BU would easily see the touches as well as the pulled foot.

Dangerous thinking - NIump and LDUB are exactly correct here. You have priorities at 3B and home, and a scoring decision on a runner is always a priority. You miss those worrying about your BU's call and you are setting yourself up for a sh*tstorm.

Stick to the established mechanics.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by LDUB

In the original play, the count was 3-2 with 2 out, bases loaded. So of course the runners would be running on the pitch. If this ground ball is far to the right of F6, then there is a good chance that the BR will be able to beat the throw. If R2 is fast, he might have a chance to score on this play.

I understand that you want to help out with the call at first, but what if R2 cuts third base, he misses it by 10 feet? You're not going to see that because you are staring at first base. You'll be forced to rule safe on the appeal because you didn't see it. I'm sure the defensive team will take solace knowing that you were right on top of that pulled foot instead of noticing runner miss a base by 10 feet.

If you look at a prior post I specifically said once R2 clears F5. (see post #8 this thread)
Implied in that is
1. Checking for obstruction
2. R2 makes proper turn at third.

My comment you are reffering to was directly related to watching an uncontested runner touch home rather than seeing the play at first.
It had nothing to do with the PU responsibility at third.

"And for what it's worth, I'll guarantee you that you will be the only person watching the foot touch home"

I'll take solace knowing your criticism and sarcasm was unfounded, and probably due to your hectic schedule causing an inability to focus, comprehend and grasp the subject at hand.
As opposed to just unable to comprehend.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by NIump50

If you look at a prior post I specifically said once R2 clears F5. (see post #8 this thread)
Implied in that is
1. Checking for obstruction
2. R2 makes proper turn at third.

In the original play F6 fielded the ball. That means that F5 would have taken at least a step or two to his left from his starting position. When R2 clears F5 he is not at all close to third base yet. So there is no way that anyone would think you are watching the touch of third base.

Originally Posted by NIump50

My comment you are reffering to was directly related to watching an uncontested runner touch home rather than seeing the play at first.
It had nothing to do with the PU responsibility at third.

So you are saying that touches of third are more important than touches of home? I guess you've never seen runners obviously miss bases on home runs.

Originally Posted by NIump50

"And for what it's worth, I'll guarantee you that you will be the only person watching the foot touch home"

A smart team would have someone in the dugout assigned to watch the base touches, and someone else to watch the umpires to see if they are watching the base touches.

Originally Posted by NIump50

I'll take solace knowing your criticism and sarcasm was unfounded, and probably due to your hectic schedule causing an inability to focus, comprehend and grasp the subject at hand.
As opposed to just unable to comprehend.

Your posts in this thred are crazy. No one knows what side you are on.

Summary of this thread:

**Thom Coste says to watch the base touches.
**You reply to Thom " I don't know that I agree"
**pdxblue replies to you "I agree...the UIC NEEDS to be paying attention to the pulled foot rather than worrying about runners touching 3rd and home."
**mcrowder says pdxblue is wrong
**You reply to mcrowder by saying "I'm sure the losing team, after being rung up on a blatantly missed tag at first, will take solace knowing R3 touched home plate even if it didn't count."

So far it is Thom and mcrowder who say to watch the touches, and you and pdxblue who say to watch the pulled foot.

**pdxblue disagrees with mcrowder
**RPatrino says to watch base touches
**I disagree with you (remember pdxblue is on your side saying to not watch the touches)
**You claim that you are for watching the base touches, going against what pdxblue would do

Obviously no one on this forum can understand which side of this discussion you are on.

[BEAREF]

Since I started this mess let me ask the question again....Is there a time when you feel it is acceptable to over rule your partners call? Or do you just offer your view and let him make the decision to change his call? That's just what I did and he didn't change the call even though it was not right.

Let's change the situation of the original post to no one on base. The responsiblities for the PU are significantly reduced in this scenario. Would you act or react differently in this situation if the original "blown call" was not changed?

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by LDUB

In the original play F6 fielded the ball. That means that F5 would have taken at least a step or two to his left from his starting position. When R2 clears F5 he is not at all close to third base yet. So there is no way that anyone would think you are watching the touch of third base..

Or the ball could have been a shot one step to F6s right and F5 moved to the bag in case F6 came his way for the force. Therefore putting F5 directly at the bag.
I'm not going to write a book to cover all the possibilities. I think most people caught the implication when I said R2 clears F5. If you didn't understand, maybe you could have asked.
I also could not just say "once r2 touches third" because F5 could be sitting on the corner of the bag or playing in on the grass and could still obstruct after the touch. R2 clearing F5 seemed to be a general enough statement to get my point accross.

Originally Posted by LDUB

So you are saying that touches of third are more important than touches of home I guess you've never seen runners obviously miss bases on home runs.?.

I was speaking specifically to this situation, not a homerun where all the focus is on the BR.
When was the last time you had an uncontested runner miss the plate while a play was being made on another runner and had it appealed?

Originally Posted by LDUB

A smart team would have someone in the dugout assigned to watch the base touches, and someone else to watch the umpires to see if they are watching the base touches..

You're joking right?
In this sitch everyone in the defensive dugout and on the field will be watching 1st as the throw leaves F6s hand.

Originally Posted by LDUB

Your posts in this thred are crazy. No one knows what side you are on.

Summary of this thread:

**Thom Coste says to watch the base touches.
**You reply to Thom " I don't know that I agree".

I agreed at third, posted my exception for home.
I noted that seeing both was probable, but in this situation I would not forego watching first to see the foot hit home.

Originally Posted by LDUB

**pdxblue replies to you "I agree...the UIC NEEDS to be paying attention to the pulled foot rather than worrying about runners touching 3rd and home."
**mcrowder says pdxblue is wrong.

What has this got to do with me?
PDX mispoke if he is coupling his agreement with me to ignoring 3rd.

Originally Posted by LDUB

**You reply to mcrowder by saying "I'm sure the losing team, after being rung up on a blatantly missed tag at first, will take solace knowing R3 touched home plate even if it didn't count.".

That is a correct quote. IMO, Mcrowder was saying that PU had no business watching first, only responsibility was to watch R3 touch home.
This quote was in response to that sentiment.
I still stand by my posts.
In this situation, PU seeing the play at first trumps watching R3 touch home if doing both can't be done.

Originally Posted by LDUB

So far it is Thom and mcrowder who say to watch the touches, and you and pdxblue who say to watch the pulled foot..

Oversimplification, but with a wide brush is true.
Perhaps that is all you are capable of.

Originally Posted by LDUB

**pdxblue disagrees with mcrowder
**RPatrino says to watch base touches
**I disagree with you (remember pdxblue is on your side saying to not watch the touches)
**You claim that you are for watching the base touches, going against what pdxblue would do

Obviously no one on this forum can understand which side of this discussion you are on.

On the contrary, I think most understand which side I'm on.
They may not agree with my side, but I've been very clear.

In case you still don't know where I stand, here's the simple explanation.

Third base important
Home plate not as important as first.

[gsf23]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

Since I started this mess let me ask the question again....Is there a time when you feel it is acceptable to over rule your partners call? Or do you just offer your view and let him make the decision to change his call? That's just what I did and he didn't change the call even though it was not right.

Let's change the situation of the original post to no one on base. The responsiblities for the PU are significantly reduced in this scenario. Would you act or react differently in this situation if the original "blown call" was not changed?

I feel for you. Seems like you seeing the play was a bigger atrocity than the pile of crap on the infield intentionally making the wrong call, but this is your partners call and there isn’t really anything you can do about it. If you tell him what you saw, whether you should have been looking or not, and he chooses to ignore it, then that is his choice. Your choice can then be to go home and tell your assignor that you don’t want to work with this guy ever again. It is obvious one of two things happened. Either your partner is an *** and doesn’t want to admit he got a call wrong, or he just didn’t want to take a chance on the game going to extra innings. Either way it reflects poorly on you and your association.

Then again, your assignor could be like these guys and say what the hell are you doing watching that play at first for anyway instead of having to deal with an obviously incompetent umpire.

[PeteBooth]

I think after this game I would be making a call to my assignor and kindly ask not to be partnered with this guy again.[/QUOTE]

Even though this particular umpire demonstrated terrible mechanics and gamesmenship, the FIRST thing you do is be man enough to talk to him DIRECTLY after the game is over and away from everyone. That is where you have a SOLID discussion and vent out any problem you had.

This is not kindergarten where you go crying to the principal when someone does something you do not like.

If, after your discussion with him, you receive NO results, then by all means contact the assignor and refuse to do games with him.

If you go "crying" to the assignor every time your partner does something inappropriate you get labled a back-stabber.

Case and Point my partner "hung me out to dry" this past weekend, but in the parking lot after the game he apologized and realized what he had done. Hey it happens, it's only a game.

If there is something that happens in a game that you do not like, then FIRST be man enough to tell your partner "mono on mono" then if you cannot resolve the issue call the assignor.

Pete Booth

[gsf23]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

I think after this game I would be making a call to my assignor and kindly ask not to be partnered with this guy again.

Even though this particular umpire demonstrated terrible mechanics and gamesmenship, the FIRST thing you do is be man enough to talk to him DIRECTLY after the game is over and away from everyone. That is where you have a SOLID discussion and vent out any problem you had.

This is not kindergarten where you go crying to the principal when someone does something you do not like.

If, after your discussion with him, you receive NO results, then by all means contact the assignor and refuse to do games with him.

If you go "crying" to the assignor every time your partner does something inappropriate you get labled a back-stabber.

Case and Point my partner "hung me out to dry" this past weekend, but in the parking lot after the game he apologized and realized what he had done. Hey it happens, it's only a game.

If there is something that happens in a game that you do not like, then FIRST be man enough to tell your partner "mono on mono" then if you cannot resolve the issue call the assignor.

Pete Booth[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I just figured that that was a given that you would be talking to him after the game. Even if we worked everything out, I would still ask not to be partnered with this guy for awhile. Hanging you out to dry is one thing, I can deal with that. Intentionally booting a call cause you want to get out of there or you don't want to admit you are wrong or you want to stick it to the coach or whatever lame reason he can come up with is something I won't be a part of. Guess that is just me though.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by NIump50

In this situation, PU seeing the play at first trumps watching R3 touch home if doing both can't be done.

Couldn't disagree more.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by NIump50

In case you still don't know where I stand, here's the simple explanation.

Third base important
Home plate not as important as first.

I suggest you get yourself out to a clinic once in a while to learn about touch responsibilities instead of making it up yourself. You have to make sure you see him touch homeplate!


Tim.