Unusual Balk Call

[3appleshigh]

8.05 - b) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw;
(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.
A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps.

As you can see inregards to First Base OBR - he must step toward and throw to the BASE. On all other bases since he is not required to throw, he can throw to a player away from the base who can make a play. Otherwise the delay of game bit comes into play.

[Tim C]

OK, let me get this straight:

For this situation let's say:

R1 is 25' off the base taking a HUGE lead.

Without disengaging, F1 and turns and throws to F3 who is standing between R1 and first base (let's say he is standing right next to R1 for this play).

F3 catches the throw and tags the runner.

Some of you are saying that under OBR, even if F3 makes the tag, it is a balk.

Have I understood the play correctly?

Regards,

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by Tim C

OK, let me get this straight:

For this situation let's say:

R1 is 25' off the base taking a HUGE lead.

Without disengaging, F1 and turns and throws to F3 who is standing between R1 and first base (let's say he is standing right next to R1 for this play).

F3 catches the throw and tags the runner.

Some of you are saying that under OBR, even if F3 makes the tag, it is a balk.

Have I understood the play correctly?

Regards,

Apparently so, Tim, and I have NO idea where they're coming up with that indefensible ruling. Maybe the same place coaches come up with this mythological 45* thing.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by UMP25

... Maybe the same place coaches come up with this mythological 45* thing.

UMP25,

Uh..., THIS particular coach came up with the "mythological 45* thing" from the following passage in the JEA in the discussion of 8.05(c):

Customs and Usage: For practical enforcement purposes, stepping directly means stepping within 45 degrees of a direct, straight line to the base. In other words, the pitcher is NOT stepping MORE toward a different base than the one to which he is throwing.

JM

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

UMP25,

Uh..., THIS particular coach came up with the "mythological 45* thing" from the following passage in the JEA in the discussion of 8.05(c):



JM

I'm not going to go of on a different rule now (BTW, I learned from Jaksa and Roder at school). Besides, has anyone bothered to every figure out why this 45* thing can't be 45*?

Hint: Let's talk geometry and the diagnonal of a square and the actual position of the rubber relative to this.

[mbyron]

I have a theory about where people are getting the idea that throwing to F3 off the base MUST be a balk. It's true that when F3 is playing back (say, with R1, R2), the pitcher can't throw to F3 when F3 is in no position to make a play on R1. But it doesn't follow that you can NEVER throw to F3 when he is off the bag. That's almost as silly as saying that because the rule says "throw to a base," it's a balk if a PLAYER catches the throw.

The purpose of the balk rule is to give the runner a chance of stealing a base by imposing restrictions on how the pitcher can hold him on. I believe that it's within the spirit of the rule (and accepted practice) to allow a throw to F3 off the bag if he has a reasonable chance to make a play - the same rationale, by the way, for allowing F1 to throw to 2B with R1. Provided F1 complied with the other requirements (stepping ahead of throw, etc.) I would not have ruled a balk the given case (F3 six feet from 1B, tags out R1).

[3appleshigh]

For reference Ump25, I simply said it comes into play, not that it has to be or should be called, now you need to determine if the throw was simply used to DELAY the GAME. I doubt it would ever be that. Therefore most likely a "play on".

The rules say you must step toward and throw to the BASE. At first you Must complete the action, all other bases don't require this so the Feint to the base is action A, the throw is a subsequent action. At First you must step and throw to the BASE. In my area a Step and reach from the base is OK, but that is the leeway allowed.

The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. -- Doesn't say toward a fielder 25 feet from a base. Now remember at all other bases you can Feint a throw, and therefore do not have to THROW to the BASE. At First YOU MUST STEP AND THROW TO THE BASE.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Besides, has anyone bothered to every figure out why this 45* thing can't be 45*?

Hint: Let's talk geometry and the diagnonal of a square and the actual position of the rubber relative to this.

That's simple.... the pitchers plate is NOT centered between home plate and second base. It is in fact 1.5 feet closer to home plate...

SCUMP... let's hear the sarcasm...

[SAump]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

That's simple.... the pitchers plate is NOT centered between home plate and second base.

Right.

Originally Posted by ctblu40

It is in fact 1.5 feet closer to home plate...

Wrong.

Distance from home base to second base is 127 feet, 3.35 inches {OBR 1.04}.
Distance from home base to pitcher's plate is 60 feet, 6 inches {OBR 1.07}.
Redo the math.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

As you can see inregards to First Base OBR - he must step toward and throw to the BASE. On all other bases since he is not required to throw, he can throw to a player away from the base who can make a play. Otherwise the delay of game bit comes into play.

No, the delay of game bit does not come into play. You and SA above are completely misinterpreting that rule as well.

Jeesh, enough already! It's bad enough that we have one misinterpreted OBR rule, now we have to bring in from nowhere this delay of game balk rule?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by UMP25

No, the delay of game bit does not come into play. You and SA above are completely misinterpreting that rule as well.

Jeesh, enough already! It's bad enough that we have one misinterpreted OBR rule, now we have to bring in from nowhere this delay of game balk rule?

Sheesh, from what I read previously your response were on the money. Now if you read what I wrote you will find that I gave the correct ruling also and the CORRECT OBR rule interpretations. I will not continue this silly debate. It's bad enough when ONE guy makes things UP. It's worse when four or five people agree with his position out of some kind of loyalty thing.

A play was made on the baserunner. It is not a balk. It is an OUT.
Had F3 not had a chance of making a legitimate play, the old rulebook considered it a delay of game and the penalty was a balk. The rules have changed I have have already posted them too. I do not understand why the argument continues. Perhaps, I have learned something.

[UMP25]

Perhaps. Anyway, enough of this bickering. Let's all move along now.