balk call?

[livtrav]

Quick question.

Right hand pitcher from the set position initiates gather move to pick R1 off second base. When he spins runner breaks to third. He fakes to second stays in contact with the rubber and then steps to and throws to third.

That is not a balk. Comments

[jicecone]

Originally posted by livtrav
Quick question.

Right hand pitcher from the set position initiates gather move to pick R1 off second base. When he spins runner breaks to third. He fakes to second stays in contact with the rubber and then steps to and throws to third.

That is not a balk. Comments

That is correct. Although I am not sure what a "gather move" is?????

[Matthew F]

The critical component, is that while the pitcher stayed in contact with the rubber after feinting to 2nd, he stepped towards 3rd before throwing there. If during his feint, the pitcher comes off the rubber, he is now a fielder and not restricted on how/where he can throw.

A common move that results in a balk, is when the pitcher feints to 3rd and pivots on both feet (while staying in contact with the rubber) and throws to first - failing to step towards the base he is throwing to with his non-pivot foot.

Good no-call Livtrav!

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by livtrav
Quick question.

Right hand pitcher from the set position initiates gather move to pick R1 off second base. When he spins runner breaks to third. He fakes to second stays in contact with the rubber and then steps to and throws to third.

That is not a balk. Comments

I have a balk. The step to 3B was not a "direct" step to third, because it was preceded by a step to 2B without breaking contact with the rubber.

Had the step to 2B resulted in a step off of the rubber, then the move to 3B would be legal.

This is no different than the famous "3rd to 1st move," in which, in OBR, the pitcher is required to break contact on the step to 3B in order to then be able to feint or throw to 1B without balking. If he does not break contact, then the move to 1B - with or withoutu a throw - is a balk, by professional interpretation.

[Matthew F]

FED Case Book
6.2.4 Situation C

With R1 on 3rd and R2 on 1st, F1 comes set. He then feints to 3rd...

Under the ruling part...

He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied 3rd and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher's plate. If F1 steps and feints to 1st, he must first disengage the pitcher plate or he is guilty of a balk.

While (in the original sitch) the pitcher stayed in contact with the rubber after feinting to 2nd, he stepped towards 3rd before throwing there and that is a legal move.

Edit: Can't type well w/o that 1st cup of Joe!



[Edited by Matthew F on Jun 8th, 2005 at 07:58 AM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Matthew F
FED Case Book
6.2.4 Situation C

With R1 on 3rd and R2 on 1st, F1 comes set. He then feints to 3rd...

Under the ruling part...

He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied 3rd and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher's plate. If F1 steps and feints to 1st, he must first disengage the pitcher plate or he is guilty of a balk.

While (in the original sitch) the pitcher stayed in contact with the rubber after feinting to 2nd, he stepped towards 3rd before throwing there and that is a legal move.

Edit: Can't type well w/o that 1st cup of Joe!



[Edited by Matthew F on Jun 8th, 2005 at 07:58 AM]

Yes -- this is one of the FED / OBR / NCAA differences. If the original play happened in a FED game, I'd say the move was legal. If it happened in an OBR / NCAA game, I'd have a balk.

I've also never seen a pitcher feint to a base and not come off the rubber.

[Matthew F]

Thanks Bob for that clarification.

I wouldn't have thought there was a different interp for a move like this between FED/OBR/NCAA, but it looks like there is.

From what I have researched, OBR prohibits the quick feint feint to 3rd, wheel, step and throw to first. But does allow a feint to 3rd (pitcher then notices R1 starting to 2nd), turn, step and throw to first. Correct? Seems the only difference is that the first move is clearly an intent to deceive R1, whereas the second move is an attempt to retire the runner?!?

How about the original sitch? Should we apply the same rational as the above?

PS. I've never seen a pitcher feint to a base and not come off the rubber either. But I do want to get the call right, if it does happen.

[bob jenkins]

OBR:

If F1 stays in contact with the rubbber (this "never" happens) on his feint to third, then he's still "on the rubber". A throw to first, or a feint to first will be a balk.

If F1 comes off the rubber, he's now an infielder and has many fewer restrictions.

[Matthew F]

Bob, am I misinterpreting 8.05c?

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-

(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base; Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk. A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion "wheels" and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.

Is there an implied "disengagement" in the bolded part of the rule? I wasn't sure because when reading the whole rule it is talking about "stepping and throwing" and doesn't get into disengagement until the last sentence.

[livtrav]

Bob,

I think you are incorrect.

[Bfair]

MLB guidelines reference the 3-1 pickoff move showing the pitcher needs to break contact with the rubber if he makes a seondary move back to 1B. I believe it's merely an example indicating that the second move from the rubber is not a "direct" move.

I don't know why a second move to 2B after a feint to 3B would be any different than a second move to 1B after a feint to 3B.

I agree with Bob..........


Just my opinion,

Freix

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by livtrav
Bob,

I think you are incorrect.

MLBUM: "Also, in the fake to third base, the pitcher must break contact with the rubber before throwing to first base."

JEA: "On the "trick 3rd to 1st" move used by the righthander, the umpire should be especially alert for two criteria:
(1) the pitcher may not break the back plane of the rubber with his free foot before attempting the feint to 3rd; and
(2) in his feint to 3rd, he must break contact from the rubber with his pivot foot.
Breaking the plane would be a balk in violation of 8.01(a) and failure to break contact would be a balk in
violation of 8.01(c)...not a direct step from the rubber ("while touching his plate")."

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by Matthew F
Bob, am I misinterpreting 8.05c?

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-

(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base; Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk. A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion "wheels" and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.

Is there an implied "disengagement" in the bolded part of the rule? I wasn't sure because when reading the whole rule it is talking about "stepping and throwing" and doesn't get into disengagement until the last sentence.

There is no doubt the rule wording you have quoted is somewhat confusing. A couple of Usenet umpire wannabes named Ryan Robbins and Scott Taylor drove Carl Childress right over the edge a few years ago debating this very point. The Robbins/Taylor mantra was, "This is legal." which they repeated ad infinitum.

Despite the ambiguity in the rule and its casebook comment, there is no ambiguity in the Jim Evans interpretation from his book, Baseball Rules Annotated, nor in the MLB Umpire Manual. Both resources clearly state the pitcher must break contact with the rubber in stepping to 3B when executing the "3rd to 1st" move.

[Dave Hensley]

Jenkins beat me to it by 3 minutes...