Unusual Balk Call

[John L]

We had an interesting call the other day. The pitcher threw to 1st base in an attempt to pick off the runner. He had his foot off the rubber when he made the throw. The first baseman was not standing on the bag but was about 6 feet away. When the throw was made the firt baseman tagged the runner out who was standing to the right side of the first baseman. The umpire called it a balk because the first baseman was too far off the bag to take the throw. He quoted a IHSA rule but could not produce it from the rule book. I have talked to several HS coaches, college coaches, expros and some say this is true but others say they have never seen or heard of this rule. What gives??

[UmpJM]

John L.,

This sounds like a bad call to me, for two primary reasons.

The balk rules do, in fact, require an "in contact" pitcher to throw (more or less) "directly" to 1B, once he has "committed" to a move in the direction of 1B, and he is properly balked if instead he throws to the F3 who is "well off" the base and has no possibility of making a play. (No such requirement in regard to 2B or 3B - not even required to throw, only to "step".)

The following is from the J/R discussion of Balks addressing this point:

[It is a balk if a(n "in contact") pitcher]

...

11. steps to first base

...

(c) and throws to first baseman who, because of his distance from the base, is (or would have been) unable to try a tag against the runner at first base.

So, by your description (if I'm reading correctly),

1. the pitcher had legally disengaged and was, therefore, no longer constrained by this proscription. (Strike 1!)

2. the F3 tagged the freakin' runner out! So, even if the F1 threw "from the rubber", he was not in violation. (Strike 2!)

JM

[mcrowder]

Coach - (1) is right. (2) is wrong. Say the leadoff was 15 feet, and F3 was right beside him - the throw to F3 is perfect for a tag, but is still a balk (if pitcher was on the rubber when the throw was initiated) because he did not throw TO A BASE. F3's proximity to the runner doesn't take the pitcher off the hook in his requirement to throw to a base.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

... Say the leadoff was 15 feet, and F3 was right beside him - the throw to F3 is perfect for a tag, but is still a balk (if pitcher was on the rubber when the throw was initiated) because he did not throw TO A BASE. F3's proximity to the runner doesn't take the pitcher off the hook in his requirement to throw to a base.

mcrowder,

I certainly wouldn't disagree with your assertion above. However, in John L's sitch, the F3 was alledgedly six ft. off 1B. I would stand by my 2nd assertion in my initial response to John L., NO balk, bad call.

JM

[TussAgee11]

I'd say the biggest problem with this one is the pitcher disengaged. As for throwing to a base, there's no set number in feet or anything, so thats going to be judgement by the Umpire (assuming the pitcher didn't disengage)

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

... As for throwing to a base, there's no set number in feet or anything, so thats going to be judgement by the Umpire (assuming the pitcher didn't disengage)

TussAgee11,

I wouldn't argue with what you say above either, and your assertion is quite consistent with what it says in the BRD on the subject (#385, for those following along at home):

....if the pitcher throws directly to the fielder there is no balk as long as the fielder attached to that base is in the "proximity" (umpire judgement) of the base. (6.2.4j).

However, as presented, the bozo who made the balk call in John L.'s sitch did not understand the criteria constraining his judgement, as nicely articulated in the following passage from the MLBUM:

...The pitcher shall be charged with a balk if, while in contact with the rubber, he throws to the first baseman who is either in front of or behind first base and obviously not making an attempt at retiring the runner at first base. ...

Again, as presented, NOT a balk, bad call.

JM

[mcrowder]

Coach - your #2, which I was saying is wrong, was:

the F3 tagged the freakin' runner out! So, even if the F1 threw "from the rubber", he was not in violation. (Strike 2!)

This is simply not a true statement and is misleading to anyone who doesn't know the rules. The fact that he was close enough to the runner to tag him is entirely 100% irrelevant.

If, however, you'd have said that "6 feet from the base is, in my judgement, not far enough away from the base to be considered a throw by the pitcher 'not to a base'", then I would probably agree with you.

[UmpJM]

mcrowder,

I believe we are in "violent agreement" on the essential question.

JM

[SAump]

There is NO must throw to the base ruling. You made this up. The fielder must have a chance at making a play. The pitcher cannot throw to the fielder out of position to make a play for it is only viewed as a delay of game tactic. The pitcher can throw to any fielder at any location who has an immediate play on the baserunner. Over and OUT.

edited twice to replace "You" with "The pitcher".

[wsttxump]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Coach - your #2, which I was saying is wrong, was:


This is simply not a true statement and is misleading to anyone who doesn't know the rules. The fact that he was close enough to the runner to tag him is entirely 100% irrelevant.

If, however, you'd have said that "6 feet from the base is, in my judgement, not far enough away from the base to be considered a throw by the pitcher 'not to a base'", then I would probably agree with you.

I believe it is 100% relivant. FED and NCAA book says this is a legal play as long as the fielder is attempting to make a play. I would say a tag is a pretty good indication that there was a play made.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by SAump

There is NO must throw to the base ruling. You made this up. The fielder must have a chance at making a play. You cannot throw to the fielder out of position to make a play for it is only viewed as a delay of game tactic. You can throw to any fielder at any loction who has an immediate play on the baserunner. Over and OUT.

WRONG!

OBR rules - From the rubber, F1 MUST throw directly to 1B, period. Other bases F1 can throw to the base or a fielder.

FED & NCAA - F1 can throw to F3 if he can make the play.

[DG]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

WRONG!

OBR rules - From the rubber, F1 MUST throw directly to 1B, period. Other bases F1 can throw to the base or a fielder.

F1 can throw to F3 if F3 is moving towards 1b to make a play. If F1 catches F3 flatfooted, even 6 feet from the base it's a balk. If he is moving toward 1B, catches the ball and then tags the runner, it's an out.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

TussAgee11,

I wouldn't argue with what you say above either, and your assertion is quite consistent with what it says in the BRD on the subject (#385, for those following along at home):



However, as presented, the bozo who made the balk call in John L.'s sitch did not understand the criteria constraining his judgement, as nicely articulated in the following passage from the MLBUM:



Again, as presented, NOT a balk, bad call.

JM

Total agreement Coach. I was just kind of outlining the rule to be able to be fitted to any circumstance. Obviously if he disengages, it is impossible to balk. If he doesn't its umpires judgement if he threw in the vacinity of the base. Kind of a "I'd have to see it" deal.

[ggk]

can we please have some consensus?? Tim??

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

the throw to F3 is perfect for a tag, but is still a balk (if pitcher was on the rubber when the throw was initiated) because he did not throw TO A BASE. F3's proximity to the runner doesn't take the pitcher off the hook in his requirement to throw to a base.

This is not an accurate statement. If a pitcher from the rubber throws to the first base bag, he's fine. However, under OBR, he CAN throw to an F3 away from a base if F3 is making a legitimate attempt to retire the runner. Do not get trapped by this "to the base" restriction, because it's not the sole, determining factor. The other key is: "Was F3 legitimately attempting to retire the runner?" If yes, no balk, distance from the base notwithstanding.