Unusual Balk Call

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

UMP25,

Uh..., THIS particular coach came up with the "mythological 45* thing" from the following passage in the JEA in the discussion of 8.05(c):



JM

I'm not going to go of on a different rule now (BTW, I learned from Jaksa and Roder at school). Besides, has anyone bothered to every figure out why this 45* thing can't be 45*?

Hint: Let's talk geometry and the diagnonal of a square and the actual position of the rubber relative to this.

[mbyron]

I have a theory about where people are getting the idea that throwing to F3 off the base MUST be a balk. It's true that when F3 is playing back (say, with R1, R2), the pitcher can't throw to F3 when F3 is in no position to make a play on R1. But it doesn't follow that you can NEVER throw to F3 when he is off the bag. That's almost as silly as saying that because the rule says "throw to a base," it's a balk if a PLAYER catches the throw.

The purpose of the balk rule is to give the runner a chance of stealing a base by imposing restrictions on how the pitcher can hold him on. I believe that it's within the spirit of the rule (and accepted practice) to allow a throw to F3 off the bag if he has a reasonable chance to make a play - the same rationale, by the way, for allowing F1 to throw to 2B with R1. Provided F1 complied with the other requirements (stepping ahead of throw, etc.) I would not have ruled a balk the given case (F3 six feet from 1B, tags out R1).

[SAump]

Originally Posted by UMP25

No, the delay of game bit does not come into play. You and SA above are completely misinterpreting that rule as well.

Jeesh, enough already! It's bad enough that we have one misinterpreted OBR rule, now we have to bring in from nowhere this delay of game balk rule?

Sheesh, from what I read previously your response were on the money. Now if you read what I wrote you will find that I gave the correct ruling also and the CORRECT OBR rule interpretations. I will not continue this silly debate. It's bad enough when ONE guy makes things UP. It's worse when four or five people agree with his position out of some kind of loyalty thing.

A play was made on the baserunner. It is not a balk. It is an OUT.
Had F3 not had a chance of making a legitimate play, the old rulebook considered it a delay of game and the penalty was a balk. The rules have changed I have have already posted them too. I do not understand why the argument continues. Perhaps, I have learned something.

[UMP25]

Perhaps. Anyway, enough of this bickering. Let's all move along now.

[3appleshigh]

For reference Ump25, I simply said it comes into play, not that it has to be or should be called, now you need to determine if the throw was simply used to DELAY the GAME. I doubt it would ever be that. Therefore most likely a "play on".

The rules say you must step toward and throw to the BASE. At first you Must complete the action, all other bases don't require this so the Feint to the base is action A, the throw is a subsequent action. At First you must step and throw to the BASE. In my area a Step and reach from the base is OK, but that is the leeway allowed.

The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. -- Doesn't say toward a fielder 25 feet from a base. Now remember at all other bases you can Feint a throw, and therefore do not have to THROW to the BASE. At First YOU MUST STEP AND THROW TO THE BASE.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Besides, has anyone bothered to every figure out why this 45* thing can't be 45*?

Hint: Let's talk geometry and the diagnonal of a square and the actual position of the rubber relative to this.

That's simple.... the pitchers plate is NOT centered between home plate and second base. It is in fact 1.5 feet closer to home plate...

SCUMP... let's hear the sarcasm...

[SAump]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

That's simple.... the pitchers plate is NOT centered between home plate and second base.

Right.

Originally Posted by ctblu40

It is in fact 1.5 feet closer to home plate...

Wrong.

Distance from home base to second base is 127 feet, 3.35 inches {OBR 1.04}.
Distance from home base to pitcher's plate is 60 feet, 6 inches {OBR 1.07}.
Redo the math.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

For reference Ump25, I simply said it comes into play, not that it has to be or should be called, now you need to determine if the throw was simply used to DELAY the GAME. I doubt it would ever be that. Therefore most likely a "play on".

The rules say you must step toward and throw to the BASE. At first you Must complete the action, all other bases don't require this so the Feint to the base is action A, the throw is a subsequent action. At First you must step and throw to the BASE. In my area a Step and reach from the base is OK, but that is the leeway allowed.

The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. -- Doesn't say toward a fielder 25 feet from a base. Now remember at all other bases you can Feint a throw, and therefore do not have to THROW to the BASE. At First YOU MUST STEP AND THROW TO THE BASE.

I think you're getting a bit too worked up by "what the rule book says." Remember, what the actual words say is not as clear as what official interps. say. The latter often clear up ambiguities and other things that are often vague. For example, this whole concept of throwing to F3 who is making a legitimate attempt to retire R1 isn't even in the book.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by SAump

Distance from home base to second base is 127 feet, 3.35 inches {OBR 1.04}.
Distance from home base to pitcher's plate is 60 feet, 6 inches {OBR 1.07}.
Redo the math.

Ah... I see the flaw in my theory.

I used the Pythagorean Theorem for right triangles. This will not work since the measurement from home to first is to the back edge of the bag but from home to second, it's to the middle...

[UMP25]

You're looking at the square the wrong way. While from home to second the distance is 90 x radical 2, I'm hoping folks can cut the 90-foot square into two halves. The top half would be from third to second to first with the diagonal to third, the bottom half from first to home to third, with the same diagonal. The rubber does not rest on this diagonal, so a 45* angle isn't possible. The rubber sits in front of the diagonal.

I'll leave it up to the math geniuses to figure out just how much away from the diagonal the rubber is.

[ctblu40]

The rubber (if I'm envisioning your triangles properly) lies 1.5 feet to the outside of the triangle. I think...

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by ggk

can we please have some consensus?? Tim??

I'm not Tim, and I can't provide consensus, but I can provide an official citation, from the MLBUM, Balk Regulations 7.5:

(a) The pitcher shall be charged with a balk if, while in contact with the rubber, he throws to the first baseman who is either in front of or behind first base and obviously not making an attempt at retiring the runner at first base. However, there is no violation if the pitcher throws the ball directly to first base in this situation. Also note that there is no violation if the pitcher attempts a pickoff at second or third and throws to an infielder who is in front of or behind either of those bases (i.e., this violation is only in reference to pick-offs at first base). Also see next paragraph in this section.

(b) There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

The rubber (if I'm envisioning your triangles properly) lies 1.5 feet to the outside of the triangle. I think...

For someone who didn't do the math, I would accept 1.5 feet as a pretty good estimate. It is reasonable given the dimesions of the playing field. If someone does the math, the correct distance is a little more than 3 feet.

For someone who didn't do the math, I would accept 45 DEGREES as a pretty good estimate. It is reasonable given the dimesions of the playing field. If someone does the math, the angle between 1B, pitcher's plate and the 45 FOOT mark along the 1B line is a little more than 46 degrees. Because most math people also round this off to 45 degrees, it is also very acceptable.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by SAump

For someone who didn't do the math, I would accept 1.5 feet as a pretty good estimate. It is reasonable given the dimesions of the playing field. If someone does the math, the correct distance is a little more than 3 feet.

For someone who didn't do the math, I would accept 45 DEGREES as a pretty good estimate. It is reasonable given the dimesions of the playing field. If someone does the math, the angle between 1B, pitcher's plate and the 45 FOOT mark along the 1B line is a little more than 46 degrees. Because most math people also round this off to 45 degrees, it is also very acceptable.

Your best post ever! 45 degrees is close enough.

Square table Man Law: 45 degrees is close enough.

[DG]

The exact play is covered on Evan's balk video. If F3 is standing flat footed when the throw is made it's a balk. If he is moving towards 1B or the runner to receive the ball and make a tag it's not. Distance F3 is from the bag is not a factor. What F3 is doing when F1 turns to throw is. If he surprised and flat footed it's a balk.