foul ball and runner does not return to previous bag

[32setmsbloriole]

Im looking for some help with a rule that ive never encountered. Runner was on second and a foul ball was hit. The runner stayed on third for 2 pitches then the umpire realized he was on third and called him out for not returning. In all my years of umpiring Ive always been told its the umpires job to return a runner back to previous bag and if they didnt well then in my opinion it was the umpires fault and the other teams for letting it happen so he should be able to stay on the next bag cause the next pitch had been thrown and not be called out, which ive never heard of. AND THIS WOULD BE FOR ANY LEAGUE UP TO PRO. Thanks for any help

[BigUmp56]

The umpire should have simply forced the runner to return to his previously occupied bag when he realized what happened. No bases may be run while the ball is dead.


Tim.

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

The umpire should have simply forced the runner to return to his previously occupied bag when he realized what happened. No bases may be run while the ball is dead.


Tim.

Bulltwinkies!

The runner had been standing on 3d FOR 2 PITCHES!
While he could have been appealed out after the ball was made live [which, I admit, probably should not have happened UNTIL he had returned, at least to the vicinity of the prior base], after 2 pitches, he's stolen that base fair and square.

[LMan]

Negative, there's nothing to appeal here, the ball was dead. Runner MUST return to TOP base after a foul ball. Since (lucky for the umpire), nothing happened during those 2 pitches, this is an easy 'fix-it' situation: PU returns runner to 2d, play resumes, and at the end of the game he forfeits his game check

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by cbfoulds

Bulltwinkies!

The runner had been standing on 3d FOR 2 PITCHES!
While he could have been appealed out after the ball was made live [which, I admit, probably should not have happened UNTIL he had returned, at least to the vicinity of the prior base], after 2 pitches, he's stolen that base fair and square.

There is no rule provision to call him out. It's actually the umpire's fault.

5.09 e) A foul ball is not caught; runners return. The umpire shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases;

[RPatrino]

Please explain to me how in the world this runner could have been on 3rd for 2 pitches before ANYONE noticed? Where was this game played, the twilight zone?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by cbfoulds

Bulltwinkies!

The runner had been standing on 3d FOR 2 PITCHES!
While he could have been appealed out after the ball was made live [which, I admit, probably should not have happened UNTIL he had returned, at least to the vicinity of the prior base], after 2 pitches, he's stolen that base fair and square.

It wouldn't matter how long he had been standing there. His advance to third was made on a dead ball. Once the umpire realized the mistake he has to return him.


5.02 After the umpire calls “Play” the ball is alive and in play and remains alive and in play until for legal cause, or at the umpire's call of “Time” suspending play, the ball becomes dead. While the ball is dead no player may be put out, no bases may be run and no runs may be scored, except that runners may advance one or more bases as the result of acts which occurred while the ball was alive (such as, but not limited to a balk, an overthrow, interference, or a home run or other fair ball hit out of the playing field.)


Tim.

[TussAgee11]

This rule was implemented in all levels of baseball in the early 1960s when Bill Mazerovski (spelling), for the Pirates, was R1 on a ball hit deep down the line. He rounded second, then the ball was called foul. He then went back to second, and took one step towards first and informed the umpire this was his lead.

Thats the story I've heard... smart player.

[johnnyg08]

cool story Tuss! thanks for sharing...yes, very smart...that makes sense as to why they'd have to implement such a rule!

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

There is no rule provision to call him out. It's actually the umpire's fault.

5.09 e) A foul ball is not caught; runners return. The umpire shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases;

On reflection [and consultation of my rule books during a break at work], I agree with Rich that I was wrong about the appeal for an out. And I further agree that, if caught before the next pitch, R should be returned to his prior base, since U1 screwed the pooch by putting the ball in play before R had returned.
I continue to be unconvinced that this "do over" can happen AFTER TWO PITCHES.

Say the pitches are both strikes - Batter out, side retired: OOPS! do-over! R returns, B back to the plate to get those 2 pitches back .... I think not!

[DG]

Originally Posted by cbfoulds

Bulltwinkies!

The runner had been standing on 3d FOR 2 PITCHES!
While he could have been appealed out after the ball was made live [which, I admit, probably should not have happened UNTIL he had returned, at least to the vicinity of the prior base], after 2 pitches, he's stolen that base fair and square.

The runner can't be called out for umpire mistake and defensive indifference to the mistake. If he is on 3B when the ball is made live then he stays, no pitch necessary. I'm no scorer, but I don't think this would count as a stolen base.

[32setmsbloriole]

thats what i thought but the umpire did call him out but we won anyway thanks too all for the input and to say i new i was right but wanted to make sure. Good day and when another mistake is made ill ask again. Too you all for the input. and yes it took two pitched before either umpire or apposing team recocnized what had happend it was crazy if i must say so myself.

[lawump]

The following play did not happen to me, rather a member of my association asked me for my opinion as to what I would have done:

South Carolina FED Rules (which means there are NO appeal plays in SC. Umpire is to call runner(s) out for appealable violations (e.g. missed base) at the end of the play.):

R1, R2, no outs. Defense calls "time" and has a mound visit. R1 & R2 trot over to third base coaches' box to talk to the head coach (who was coaching third base, too). When "time" is over, R1 and R2 return to second base and third base, respectively, instead of first and second. One pitch is thrown, but not put in play. Umpires now realize what is going on. Umpire is convinced that this was an intentional tactic done by the offense...in otherwords umpire, in his judgment, did not believe this was done by mistake or accident.

The question posed to me: What would I have done?

My Answer (and I am NOT saying that my answer is absolutely correct. I welcome differing opinions!):

R1, R2 and head coach are all ejected under Joe Brinkman's theory (general principals). (maybe travesty of the game, etc.) Tell acting head coach to put two substitutes in the game and they are going to R1 and R2. The last pitch does not count.

One final note: I answered that question WITHOUT looking at a rulebook, and I have NOT looked at a rulebook yet while typing this post. I'm just posting what I said to the questioner off the top of my head, and probably what I would have done on the field (had this happened to me) without my rulebook. I welcome others to tell me if they'd handle it differently.

[orioles35]

Interesting topic, and oddly enough we've had the same thing happen here in the last couple of weeks.

We all agree the correct thing to do is to not put the ball back in play until runners return to the original bases.

As for the sitch in the last post, BOTH runners having moved up a bag after a conference with the coach is obviously intentional. What to do here if you notice it BEFORE a pitch has been thrown? At that point it's still intentional. Eject then? Put the ball in play, then immediately call time and eject? Honestly I have no idea here.

[ctblu40]

Good question lawump... it deserves a good answer... I don't think i have one for this though.
Here's what i would use in considering my course of action-
1) is the coach a jerk and known for this type of behavior?
2) did the ump catch it and talk to the coach? If so did the coach argue?
3) was it a tight game and an obvious intent to put the faster runner on second?

If the answer to these questions are all yes, then EJ. If there's any doubt, just correct the mistake.