Previous Spot................Or Not???

[GPC2]

Here is a question that we have been discussing at length in our association. I will give my interpretation, but I don't necessarily know if it is absolutely correct or even if it is spelled out in the rule book.

R1 is in the game to return a kickoff. He muffs the kick at R's 15. R1 then bats the bouncing ball at R's 8 into and out of R's end zone. Ruling: Safety

We all agree that the answer is False it is not a Safety, but the disagreement is on the enforcement spot. I am of the opinion that the basic spot is the succeeding spot - which is R's 20-yard line. BUT, the penalty would be enforced from the 8-yard line since that spot is behind the basic spot.

Reasoning: based on 10-4-5d, the basic spot is the succeeding spot when the final result is a touchback. It is a touchback based on 2-13-4a, Force is not a factor on kicks going into R's end zone, since these kicks are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force.


Other officials in the association insist that this is a loose ball foul that would be administered from the previous spot.

Monkey Wrench: If R1's batted ball goes out at R's 1-yard line, would the basic spot be the 1-yard line? Seems weird - just looking for clarification on this issue.

[MJT]

Originally posted by GPC2
Here is a question that we have been discussing at length in our association. I will give my interpretation, but I don't necessarily know if it is absolutely correct or even if it is spelled out in the rule book.

R1 is in the game to return a kickoff. He muffs the kick at R's 15. R1 then bats the bouncing ball at R's 8 into and out of R's end zone. Ruling: Safety

We all agree that the answer is False it is not a Safety, but the disagreement is on the enforcement spot. I am of the opinion that the basic spot is the succeeding spot - which is R's 20-yard line. BUT, the penalty would be enforced from the 8-yard line since that spot is behind the basic spot.

Reasoning: based on 10-4-5d, the basic spot is the succeeding spot when the final result is a touchback. It is a touchback based on 2-13-4a, Force is not a factor on kicks going into R's end zone, since these kicks are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force.


Other officials in the association insist that this is a loose ball foul that would be administered from the previous spot.

Monkey Wrench: If R1's batted ball goes out at R's 1-yard line, would the basic spot be the 1-yard line? Seems weird - just looking for clarification on this issue.

You are correct. The whole thing what is the correct basic spot.

10-4-2-b says the BS is the PS for a foul which occurs during a loose ball play, as defined in 10-3-1. 10-3-1-a says "a loose ball play is action during a free kick or other scrimmage kick." 10-4-5-d says "the BS is the SSpot when the final result is a touchback." Now we have a loose ball play, which resulted in a TB, so you have a SSpot enforcement. You can justify the TB trumping the PS loose ball BS enforcement cuz if the foul is a USC, DB, or NP foul (the others mentioned in 10-4-5, they are SSpot enforcements whether or not you had a loose ball, or running play. I don't think your other officials would argue with that, so if those 3 trump the PS BS, so would the TB.

Everything else on YOUR enforcement was correct.

For your "monkey wrench," in that case the BS would be the PS cuz the foul occurred during a kick and did not end in a TB.

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by GPC2


R1 is in the game to return a kickoff. He muffs the kick at R's 15. R1 then bats the bouncing ball at R's 8 into and out of R's end zone. Ruling: Safety

We all agree that the answer is False it is not a Safety, but the disagreement is on the enforcement spot.

Monkey Wrench: If R1's batted ball goes out at R's 1-yard line, would the basic spot be the 1-yard line? Seems weird - just looking for clarification on this issue.

We do? I would not. R is not allowed to bat the ball. The bat put the ball into and out of the end zone, not the kick. Safety! (8-5-2-b)(as I am sure K will decline the foul for illegal batting)

In the "monkey wrench" play, In this case it would be a PS enforcement but I bet the kicking team declines the foul and it will be R's ball 1st and 10 at the 1.

[Edited by cowbyfan1 on Aug 23rd, 2005 at 05:35 AM]

[mikesears]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1

We do? I would not. R is not allowed to bat the ball. The bat put the ball into and out of the end zone, not the kick. Safety! (8-5-2-b)(as I am sure K will decline the foul for illegal batting)

In the "monkey wrench" play, In this case it would be a PS enforcement but I bet the kicking team declines the foul and it will be R's ball 1st and 10 at the 1.

[Edited by cowbyfan1 on Aug 23rd, 2005 at 05:35 AM]

Force is not a factor on a kick entering R's end zone. These are always a touchback. In other words, we ignore any new force when a kick enters R's end zone.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by GPC2
Here is a question that we have been discussing at length in our association. I will give my interpretation, but I don't necessarily know if it is absolutely correct or even if it is spelled out in the rule book.

R1 is in the game to return a kickoff. He muffs the kick at R's 15. R1 then bats the bouncing ball at R's 8 into and out of R's end zone. Ruling: Safety

We all agree that the answer is False it is not a Safety, but the disagreement is on the enforcement spot. I am of the opinion that the basic spot is the succeeding spot - which is R's 20-yard line. BUT, the penalty would be enforced from the 8-yard line since that spot is behind the basic spot.

Reasoning: based on 10-4-5d, the basic spot is the succeeding spot when the final result is a touchback. It is a touchback based on 2-13-4a, Force is not a factor on kicks going into R's end zone, since these kicks are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force.


Other officials in the association insist that this is a loose ball foul that would be administered from the previous spot.

Monkey Wrench: If R1's batted ball goes out at R's 1-yard line, would the basic spot be the 1-yard line? Seems weird - just looking for clarification on this issue.

Fouls during a free kick down are ALWAYS previous spot enforecment:

Rule 5-2-4:
When a foul occurs prior to or during a free-kick down and before any change of team possession, the down which follows enforcement is a free-kick down, unless following a fair catch or an awarded fair catch, a scrimmage down is chosen for the replay.

[kdf5]

A toughie. Good arguments for all sides (except a safety). I agree with the final result of the play is a touchback so the suceeding spot is the 20, the foul occured behind the succeeding spot at the 8. Enforcement from the 8.

[mikesears]

Rule 5-2-4 specifically states that if a foul occurs during a free kick, the next down will also be a free kick down. It makes no exceptions for a touchback. Seems pretty cut and dried to me that if K wants to accept the penalty for R's batting foul, they are going to be rekicking the ball per 5-2-4, regardless of the results of the play.

[MJT]

Originally posted by mikesears
Rule 5-2-4 specifically states that if a foul occurs during a free kick, the next down will also be a free kick down. It makes no exceptions for a touchback. Seems pretty cut and dried to me that if K wants to accept the penalty for R's batting foul, they are going to be rekicking the ball per 5-2-4, regardless of the results of the play.

So Mike, if you have a USC foul on K during a free kick, the only option for R is to decline the foul or free kick again after the penalty enforcement? USC is a SSpot foul, as is DB, and nonplayer. If these would be SSpot enforcements, so would (d) in the same rule 10-4-5 which is "if the final result is a touchback."

[mikesears]

Originally posted by MJT

So Mike, if you have a USC foul on K during a free kick, the only option for R is to decline the foul or free kick again after the penalty enforcement? USC is a SSpot foul, as is DB, and nonplayer. If these would be SSpot enforcements, so would (d) in the same rule 10-4-5 which is "if the final result is a touchback."

I stand by my position. Obviously, we enforce ALL USC, dead ball, and nonplayer fouls from the succeeding spot ALL THE TIME. There is no rule contrary to this anywhere else in the book.

How do you rule on this play?

4th and Goal on R's 5-yard line. K1's field goal attempt is partially blocked and rolls to the 4-yard line. R1 then bats the ball out the back of their own end zone. What is the result of this play but more importantly, how do we enforce this?

Or how about this one?

1st and ten on A's 30-yard line. A1 is illegally in motion at the snap. A3 runs the ball all the way to B's 3-yard line where he fumbles the ball out of the back of B's end zone. What is the result of this play and how would the penalty be enforced?

[Edited by mikesears on Aug 23rd, 2005 at 09:59 AM]

[MJT]

Originally posted by mikesears

I stand by my position. Obviously, we enforce ALL USC, dead ball, and nonplayer fouls from the succeeding spot ALL THE TIME. There is no rule contrary to this anywhere else in the book.

How do you rule on this play?

4th and Goal on R's 5-yard line. K1's field goal attempt is partially blocked and rolls to the 4-yard line. R1 then bats the ball out the back of their own end zone. What is the result of this play but more importantly, how do we enforce this?


[Edited by mikesears on Aug 23rd, 2005 at 09:41 AM]

Mike, in your play, it was a grounded scrimmage kick that R gave a new force to and when they batted it out the back of their EZ we have a safety.

Now back to the other. Rule 10-4-5 says "the BS is the SSpot:
(a) for USC
(b) for DB
(c) for NP
(d) when the final result is a TB

Now if you agree that a, b, and c are SSpot enforcements, why would (d) not be. I know what 5-2-4 says but it seams pretty clear that rule 10-4-5-d takes care of the exact play being discussed and that 5-2-4 just does not say anything about it being different if the final result is a TB, which 10-4-5 does.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by MJT

Mike, in your play, it was a grounded scrimmage kick that R gave a new force to and when they batted it out the back of their EZ we have a safety.

Now back to the other. Rule 10-4-5 says "the BS is the SSpot:
(a) for USC
(b) for DB
(c) for NP
(d) when the final result is a TB

Now if you agree that a, b, and c are SSpot enforcements, why would (d) not be. I know what 5-2-4 says but it seams pretty clear that rule 10-4-5-d takes care of the exact play being discussed and that 5-2-4 just does not say anything about it being different if the final result is a TB, which 10-4-5 does.

Force is not a factor on kicks entering R's endzone. These are always a touchback. Given this, how is this enforced?

[mikesears]

Originally posted by MJT

Mike, in your play, it was a grounded scrimmage kick that R gave a new force to and when they batted it out the back of their EZ we have a safety.

Now back to the other. Rule 10-4-5 says "the BS is the SSpot:
(a) for USC
(b) for DB
(c) for NP
(d) when the final result is a TB

Now if you agree that a, b, and c are SSpot enforcements, why would (d) not be. I know what 5-2-4 says but it seams pretty clear that rule 10-4-5-d takes care of the exact play being discussed and that 5-2-4 just does not say anything about it being different if the final result is a TB, which 10-4-5 does.

How about this one?

1st and ten on A's 30-yard line. A1 is illegally in motion at the snap. A3 runs the ball all the way to B's 3-yard line where he fumbles the ball out of the back of B's end zone. What is the result of this play and how would the penalty be enforced?

[MJT]

Originally posted by mikesears

Force is not a factor on kicks entering R's endzone. These are always a touchback. Given this, how is this enforced?

Duh, I knew that one, just typed before I thought. We have the BS is the 20 and the foul behind the BS so enforeced from the spot of the foul.

Now how are you arguing my point of enforceing 10-4-5 a-c one way, and (d) another way?

[mikesears]

See the second play I posted. That's a play that results in a touchback, too. Succeeding spot enforcement as well?

Why or why not?


I've answered why I believe D) doesn't apply to the play.

[mikesears]

Here are the pertinent rules and why I feel so strongly about this.....


The end of Rule 5-2-1 states

After a distance penalty, the ball belongs to the team in possession at the time of the foul unless it is a 2-16-2g (post-scrimmage kick) foul.

PSK does not apply because this is a free kick. K put the ball in play, therefore, they have the option of replaying the (free kick) down following enforcement or of taking the results of the play.

Rule 5-2-4 states:
When a foul occurs prior to or during a free-kick down and before any change of team possession, the down which follows enforcement is a free-kick down, unless following a fair catch or an awarded fair catch, a scrimmage down is chosen for the replay.


I am not disregarding 10-4-5d. I just don't believe it applies to a loose ball play. I believe the intent is to create a new basic spot for plays where B/R intercepts or recovers a fumble in A/K's end zone and they subsequently foul.

Here is another play.

1st and ten on B's 5-yard line. A1 throws a pass and A2 interfers with B2. B3 intercepts the pass in the end zone and is downed in the end zone. Results of the play is a touchback. Enforce from the succeeding spot or not?



If my interpretation is correct, I think the rule should be reworded because of a situation like this.