runner struck by thrown ball

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LDUB

So you are rewarding the runner who failed to slide or get out of the way. Where do you expect the fielder to throw the ball when the runner is standing 10 feet away in a direct line between him and first base?

Nowhere in rule 8-4-2 does it say that the runner:

a) must slide

or

b) must get out of the way

Where do I expect the fielder to throw the ball? How about coming across the base to take the throw on the inside of the diamond or touching the base and backing away from the base on the outside of the diamond? These are the mechanics which are taught to second basemen.

[bob jenkins]

My opinion -- the FPSR is primarily a safety rule -- protect the middle infielder, not only when there is contact, but when there might be contact. Calling the runer out for being hit by the throw does not protect the middle infielder (that is, there's nothing to protect him from). So, don't call the second out.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Nowhere in rule 8-4-2 does it say that the runner:

a) must slide

or

b) must get out of the way

Where do I expect the fielder to throw the ball? How about coming across the base to take the throw on the inside of the diamond or touching the base and backing away from the base on the outside of the diamond? These are the mechanics which are taught to second basemen.

Check out F. "As a runner or retired runner, fails to execute a legal slide, or does not attempt to avoid the fielder or the play on a force play at any base." The runner has to either slide or get out of the way. Running in a direct line between the bases is not getting out of the way.

[BlueLawyer]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Check out F. "As a runner or retired runner, fails to execute a legal slide, or does not attempt to avoid the fielder or the play on a force play at any base." The runner has to either slide or get out of the way. Running in a direct line between the bases is not getting out of the way.

Key language: "or the play on a force play" What does "play on a force play" mean? A fair reading could be the act of the fielder with the ball touching the bag on a force play. It certainly does not say "the runner must, at all costs, avoid the relay throw coming from second base. If the runner fails to do so, the batter runner shall be declared out." The wizards at NFHS, NCAA and the OBR committee could all put this in there; they didn't.

I still ain't calling this interference, even with a FPSR. This could turn into Keystone Kops in a hurry. My main concern is that if I Godzilla this and get the second out, defenses will start throwing at runners who are close to second, especially when there is a potential whacker at first. What's easier, turning the 6-4-3 the way Tinker to Evers to Chance did it, or plunking happless R1 who is ten feet from second? The leagues I work aren't athletic enough to turn lots of double plays, but they are competitive enough to find a way to get one if I open the door for them.

Strikes and outs!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Check out F. "As a runner or retired runner, fails to execute a legal slide, or does not attempt to avoid the fielder or the play on a force play at any base." The runner has to either slide or get out of the way. Running in a direct line between the bases is not getting out of the way.

The way I see it, and I'm not alone in this, is that the rules state that runners are never required to slide (8-4-2{b} NOTE). This takes care of the first part. He only has to execute a legal slide when he is at risk of contacting the fielder, not when he is 10 feet away.

He does have to avoid the fielder (which he is not violating, as he was hit with a thrown ball 6 to 10 feet from the base). So he avoided the fielder.

He also must not interfere with the play on a force at any base (which he is not violating, because the play on the force was already successful). Since he was retired on the force play, he did not interfere with that play.

8-4-2(f) has everything to do with the play at the base itself, not any following play, such as a relay to first to complete a double play.

The runner was plunked by a ball on a play on which the fielder could have done a much better job of turning the double play. Unless the runner intentionally allowed the ball to hit him, or made a move to get hit by the ball in some way, I don't have interference.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The way I see it, and I'm not alone in this, is that the rules state that runners are never required to slide (8-4-2{b} NOTE). This takes care of the first part. He only has to execute a legal slide when he is at risk of contacting the fielder, not when he is 10 feet away.

If the runner chooses not to slide then he must attempt to avoid the play. Running in a direct line between the bases is not avoiding the play.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

He also must not interfere with the play on a force at any base (which he is not violating, because the play on the force was already successful). Since he was retired on the force play, he did not interfere with that play.

So by your logic if F6 steps to the side of second base and is taken out by R1's slide it is not interference. R1 was retired on the force play, it was already sucessful therefore R1 cannot interfere with the play.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

8-4-2(f) has everything to do with the play at the base itself, not any following play, such as a relay to first to complete a double play.

8-4-2F is the force play slide rule. The FPSR is all about the throw to first base on the double play.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The runner was plunked by a ball on a play on which the fielder could have done a much better job of turning the double play. Unless the runner intentionally allowed the ball to hit him, or made a move to get hit by the ball in some way, I don't have interference.

So if the runner is standing directly between the fielder and first base, where do you expect the fielder to throw the ball? R1 should have been either on the ground (sliding) so the fielder can throw over him or veering off to the side (getting out of the way) so the fielder has clear lane to throw the ball.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LDUB

If the runner chooses not to slide then he must attempt to avoid the play. Running in a direct line between the bases is not avoiding the play.

The play already happened. The throw to first is not the play being referred to.

So by your logic if F6 steps to the side of second base and is taken out by R1's slide it is not interference. R1 was retired on the force play, it was already sucessful therefore R1 cannot interfere with the play.

No, that would be interference, because F6 still has the ball, and the runner did not legally slide directly into the base. You are comparing apples to pommegranites here.

8-4-2F is the force play slide rule. The FPSR is all about the throw to first base on the double play.

No, the FPSR is all about not crashing the pivot man on a double play. It has nothing to do with once the ball is thrown. If the runner comes in standing up and forces the pivot man to make an errant throw, then he has violated the FPSR.

So if the runner is standing directly between the fielder and first base, where do you expect the fielder to throw the ball? R1 should have been either on the ground (sliding) so the fielder can throw over him or veering off to the side (getting out of the way) so the fielder has clear lane to throw the ball.

How do you expect a runner who is trying to reach the base safely, and is within 6 to 10 feet from the base to "veer off" or slide? If he slides, he comes up short. What if the pivot man drops the ball, and the runner slid in anticipation of the throw and ends up 3 feet short of the base?

Like I said before, the fielders turning the DP are trained to either come across the base to make their throws, or to touch the base and do a push-off step backward (2nd baseman only) to throw. It only takes a slight adjustment to avoid throwing the ball into the baserunner, and it is the fielders job to do this, not the runners.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Like I said before, the fielders turning the DP are trained to either come across the base to make their throws, or to touch the base and do a push-off step backward (2nd baseman only) to throw. It only takes a slight adjustment to avoid throwing the ball into the baserunner, and it is the fielders job to do this, not the runners.

You obviously never played 2nd base.

Question
Is the FPSR only intended for the safety of the pivot man?

R1 comes directly into 2nd standing tall. F4 is doing the push off step backward throwing directly to F3 on the bag and plants it directly into R1s forehead. R1 goes down with major concussion and brain hemmorage.
What do you got?
I've got interference on R1 and he's out (in more ways than one)
FPSR is for the protection of BOTH runner and fielder.
No where in the rules that I've read does it say that fielder must adjust his throw to avoid runner.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by NIump50

You obviously never played 2nd base.

I have played every position in baseball except pitcher, which I tried once and was really bad at it. I have played baseball since I was a small child, all the way adult baseball. I played Pony, Colt and Thoroughbred (now called Palomino), instead of HS ball, because I played Varsity Golf in high school. I was a Physical Education major in college, and was proficient in 12 sports to at least the intermediate level.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

How do you expect a runner who is trying to reach the base safely, and is within 6 to 10 feet from the base to "veer off" or slide? If he slides, he comes up short. What if the pivot man drops the ball, and the runner slid in anticipation of the throw and ends up 3 feet short of the base?

Not trying to pick on you Steve, but I have another question.
How far from the base does a proper feet first slide start for a 6' player?
How about a head first slide?
On a head first slide, how far out is the runner when he begins to lower the torso in anticipation of the dive forward?
I'll bet you a cold one it's much further than 6' and a little bit further than 10'.
If you're 6' tall and you start your dive 6' away from base, you'll be past the base before you land.
you may be dead on in your rules interp, though I disagree, but this defense does not ring true.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by NIump50

Not trying to pick on you Steve, but I have another question.
How far from the base does a proper feet first slide start for a 6' player?
How about a head first slide?
On a head first slide, how far out is the runner when he begins to lower the torso in anticipation of the dive forward?
I'll bet you a cold one it's much further than 6' and a little bit further than 10'.
If you're 6' tall and you start your dive 6' away from base, you'll be past the base before you land.
you may be dead on in your rules interp, though I disagree, but this defense does not ring true.

I'd say 10 ft. is about right, but I would still have to see the play before calling interference. I'm not going to just willy-nilly give a blanket interference call with just the fact that R1 got nailed with the throw.

I was originally in the camp that called it interference, but as I said, I have had a change in position, ala John Kerry. I voted for the interference, before I voted against it. Pretty spooky, huh?

If your not picking on me, how about arguing with some of the other folks who have taken this position, huh?