runner struck by thrown ball

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Check out F. "As a runner or retired runner, fails to execute a legal slide, or does not attempt to avoid the fielder or the play on a force play at any base." The runner has to either slide or get out of the way. Running in a direct line between the bases is not getting out of the way.

The way I see it, and I'm not alone in this, is that the rules state that runners are never required to slide (8-4-2{b} NOTE). This takes care of the first part. He only has to execute a legal slide when he is at risk of contacting the fielder, not when he is 10 feet away.

He does have to avoid the fielder (which he is not violating, as he was hit with a thrown ball 6 to 10 feet from the base). So he avoided the fielder.

He also must not interfere with the play on a force at any base (which he is not violating, because the play on the force was already successful). Since he was retired on the force play, he did not interfere with that play.

8-4-2(f) has everything to do with the play at the base itself, not any following play, such as a relay to first to complete a double play.

The runner was plunked by a ball on a play on which the fielder could have done a much better job of turning the double play. Unless the runner intentionally allowed the ball to hit him, or made a move to get hit by the ball in some way, I don't have interference.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The way I see it, and I'm not alone in this, is that the rules state that runners are never required to slide (8-4-2{b} NOTE). This takes care of the first part. He only has to execute a legal slide when he is at risk of contacting the fielder, not when he is 10 feet away.

If the runner chooses not to slide then he must attempt to avoid the play. Running in a direct line between the bases is not avoiding the play.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

He also must not interfere with the play on a force at any base (which he is not violating, because the play on the force was already successful). Since he was retired on the force play, he did not interfere with that play.

So by your logic if F6 steps to the side of second base and is taken out by R1's slide it is not interference. R1 was retired on the force play, it was already sucessful therefore R1 cannot interfere with the play.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

8-4-2(f) has everything to do with the play at the base itself, not any following play, such as a relay to first to complete a double play.

8-4-2F is the force play slide rule. The FPSR is all about the throw to first base on the double play.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The runner was plunked by a ball on a play on which the fielder could have done a much better job of turning the double play. Unless the runner intentionally allowed the ball to hit him, or made a move to get hit by the ball in some way, I don't have interference.

So if the runner is standing directly between the fielder and first base, where do you expect the fielder to throw the ball? R1 should have been either on the ground (sliding) so the fielder can throw over him or veering off to the side (getting out of the way) so the fielder has clear lane to throw the ball.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LDUB

If the runner chooses not to slide then he must attempt to avoid the play. Running in a direct line between the bases is not avoiding the play.

The play already happened. The throw to first is not the play being referred to.

So by your logic if F6 steps to the side of second base and is taken out by R1's slide it is not interference. R1 was retired on the force play, it was already sucessful therefore R1 cannot interfere with the play.

No, that would be interference, because F6 still has the ball, and the runner did not legally slide directly into the base. You are comparing apples to pommegranites here.

8-4-2F is the force play slide rule. The FPSR is all about the throw to first base on the double play.

No, the FPSR is all about not crashing the pivot man on a double play. It has nothing to do with once the ball is thrown. If the runner comes in standing up and forces the pivot man to make an errant throw, then he has violated the FPSR.

So if the runner is standing directly between the fielder and first base, where do you expect the fielder to throw the ball? R1 should have been either on the ground (sliding) so the fielder can throw over him or veering off to the side (getting out of the way) so the fielder has clear lane to throw the ball.

How do you expect a runner who is trying to reach the base safely, and is within 6 to 10 feet from the base to "veer off" or slide? If he slides, he comes up short. What if the pivot man drops the ball, and the runner slid in anticipation of the throw and ends up 3 feet short of the base?

Like I said before, the fielders turning the DP are trained to either come across the base to make their throws, or to touch the base and do a push-off step backward (2nd baseman only) to throw. It only takes a slight adjustment to avoid throwing the ball into the baserunner, and it is the fielders job to do this, not the runners.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Like I said before, the fielders turning the DP are trained to either come across the base to make their throws, or to touch the base and do a push-off step backward (2nd baseman only) to throw. It only takes a slight adjustment to avoid throwing the ball into the baserunner, and it is the fielders job to do this, not the runners.

You obviously never played 2nd base.

Question
Is the FPSR only intended for the safety of the pivot man?

R1 comes directly into 2nd standing tall. F4 is doing the push off step backward throwing directly to F3 on the bag and plants it directly into R1s forehead. R1 goes down with major concussion and brain hemmorage.
What do you got?
I've got interference on R1 and he's out (in more ways than one)
FPSR is for the protection of BOTH runner and fielder.
No where in the rules that I've read does it say that fielder must adjust his throw to avoid runner.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by NIump50

You obviously never played 2nd base.

I have played every position in baseball except pitcher, which I tried once and was really bad at it. I have played baseball since I was a small child, all the way adult baseball. I played Pony, Colt and Thoroughbred (now called Palomino), instead of HS ball, because I played Varsity Golf in high school. I was a Physical Education major in college, and was proficient in 12 sports to at least the intermediate level.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

How do you expect a runner who is trying to reach the base safely, and is within 6 to 10 feet from the base to "veer off" or slide? If he slides, he comes up short. What if the pivot man drops the ball, and the runner slid in anticipation of the throw and ends up 3 feet short of the base?

Not trying to pick on you Steve, but I have another question.
How far from the base does a proper feet first slide start for a 6' player?
How about a head first slide?
On a head first slide, how far out is the runner when he begins to lower the torso in anticipation of the dive forward?
I'll bet you a cold one it's much further than 6' and a little bit further than 10'.
If you're 6' tall and you start your dive 6' away from base, you'll be past the base before you land.
you may be dead on in your rules interp, though I disagree, but this defense does not ring true.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I have played every position in baseball except pitcher, which I tried once and was really bad at it. I have played baseball since I was a small child, all the way adult baseball. I played Pony, Colt and Thoroughbred (now called Palomino), instead on HS ball, because I played Varsity Golf in high school. I was a Physical Education major in college, and was proficient in 12 sports to at least the intermediate level.

I was not intending to impune your athletic prowess. Nor was I refferring to any of the other 11 sports.
I stand corrected, you played 2nd.
I guess I'd have to say there is a difference in playing 2nd and intimately knowing the position.
In my experience, F4s and F6s are not taught to adjust their throw to avoid the runner. If there is a coach that does promote this then I think he needs to be a croquet coach, not baseball.

All it takes is one runner to get beaned on the relay and I'll guarantee you all other runners the rest of the game will veer off or slide.
I think FPSR is trying to avoid the first one

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by NIump50

Not trying to pick on you Steve, but I have another question.
How far from the base does a proper feet first slide start for a 6' player?
How about a head first slide?
On a head first slide, how far out is the runner when he begins to lower the torso in anticipation of the dive forward?
I'll bet you a cold one it's much further than 6' and a little bit further than 10'.
If you're 6' tall and you start your dive 6' away from base, you'll be past the base before you land.
you may be dead on in your rules interp, though I disagree, but this defense does not ring true.

I'd say 10 ft. is about right, but I would still have to see the play before calling interference. I'm not going to just willy-nilly give a blanket interference call with just the fact that R1 got nailed with the throw.

I was originally in the camp that called it interference, but as I said, I have had a change in position, ala John Kerry. I voted for the interference, before I voted against it. Pretty spooky, huh?

If your not picking on me, how about arguing with some of the other folks who have taken this position, huh?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by NIump50

All it takes is one runner to get beaned on the relay and I'll guarantee you all other runners the rest of the game will veer off or slide.
I think FPSR is trying to avoid the first one

Yes, that is what is supposed to happen. The coaches should be telling the runners to slide or veer off. Common sense and self preservation should tell a runner this, and in most cases, that is what happens.

I did not see the play in question, so I don't know what led up the the runner being hit with the ball. Perhaps the defense muffed the play at the beginning and the outcome of the play at 2nd was still in doubt.

I am saying that the rule as written does not specifically address any "must slide" or "veer off" language. Perhaps if they added "must slide or veer off" to the rule, we wouldn't need to have a lengthy thread arguing about it.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I was originally in the camp that called it interference, but as I said, I have had a change in position, ala John Kerry. I voted for the interference, before I voted against it. Pretty spooky, huh?

If your not picking on me, how about arguing with some of the other folks who have taken this position, huh?

If you were really John Kerry like then I'd be more tempted to impune, discredit and make fun you of as opposed to argue with.

I consider it more of a debate than an argument and your post gave me the best opportunity to present my perspective of FPSR being for the benefit of both the runner and fielder.
If FPSR is for both then IMO the perspective of how it is interpreted changes.
Based on my opinion of the intent of FPSR the responsibility falls on the runner to avoid the relay in a DP situation. If a fielder throws at a runner, trying to draw an interference, then I've got unsportsmanlike conduct.
For me it's a safety rule and I'm going to interpret for the safety of both.

[gsf23]

I'm still trying to figure out how a runner that is six feet from second base gets plunked in the thigh with a ball that is supposed to go all the way to first. Is the runner 7 feet tall? Is the second baseman only three-feet tall? Was he throwing underhand? It reads to me like the second baseman intentionally threw at the runners legs to try to get the interference call.

Christ if he got hit in the thigh standing up, he probably would have taken it to the face if he did slide, maybe that is why he didn't.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I am saying that the rule as written does not specifically address any "must slide" or "veer off" language. Perhaps if they added "must slide or veer off" to the rule, we wouldn't need to have a lengthy thread arguing about it.

Actually I quoted the rule earlier in this thread and it says that the runner must on a force play either slide legally or attempt to avoid the play (veer off). Yet you still feel the need to have a lengthy discussion about it. I even posted an NFHS interp in which a runner who went in standing up and was hit with a throw and called for interference.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by gsf23

I'm still trying to figure out how a runner that is six feet from second base gets plunked in the thigh with a ball that is supposed to go all the way to first. Is the runner 7 feet tall? Is the second baseman only three-feet tall? Was he throwing underhand? It reads to me like the second baseman intentionally threw at the runners legs to try to get the interference call.

Now we're really getting into pure conjecture.
Maybe at the last second F4 decided he didn't want to kill R1 and threw down to avoid beaning him in the head.
Maybe the throw to F4 was low and he was firing sidearm.
Maybe F4 tried stopping his throwing motion, again to avoid killing R1 and the ball came out of his hand and hit the thigh.
Maybe it was just a bad throw, but directly in line with F3.

Originally Posted by gsf23

Christ if he got hit in the thigh standing up, he probably would have taken it to the face if he did slide, maybe that is why he didn't.

I want this kid on my team.
If he has the ability to react to a ball thrown 10' away while running directly toward the thrower then he's superman.
Imagine what he could do to a ball thrown from 60' and him standing still.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Actually I quoted the rule earlier in this thread and it says that the runner must on a force play either slide legally or attempt to avoid the play (veer off). Yet you still feel the need to have a lengthy discussion about it. I even posted an NFHS interp in which a runner who went in standing up and was hit with a throw and called for interference.

And once again, I maintain that this is referring to the play at second base, and avoiding the play at second base only, and does not refer to any following play after the force out. You cannot assume a double-play. The runner is required to either slide (to avoid contact with the fielder) or attempt to avoid the play at second base, not a subsequent throw.

If the rules makers want to include the relay throw to first in their interpretation, then they should spell it out clearly. Oh, I forgot, FED doesn't do clearly very well.

Once again, I'm not the only one that holds this opinion.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

And once again, I maintain that this is referring to the play at second base, and avoiding the play at second base only, and does not refer to any following play after the force out. You cannot assume a double-play. The runner is required to either slide (to avoid contact with the fielder) or attempt to avoid the play at second base, not a subsequent throw.

If the rules makers want to include the relay throw to first in their interpretation, then they should spell it out clearly. Oh, I forgot, FED doesn't do clearly very well.

Once again, I'm not the only one that holds this opinion.

I posted this earlier: "On a force play a runner hit by a throw between the bases is guilty of interference if he did not slide or run well away from the fielder making the throw." How is that not clear enough for you?