The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 29, 2006, 12:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 4,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56
It's going to be pretty hard to say it wasn't interference if the runner was only 6 to 10 feet from the base when he was struck by the ball.


Tim.
If you are going to make that call "automatic", then you are holding the runner responsible for the timing of the fielder's actions and ability.

I make that call on a case by case basis. I do not reward offenses who bobble balls, throw poorly, miss bases and plunk runners at the last second to draw a call.
__________________
GB
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 29, 2006, 12:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
I do not reward offenses who bobble balls, throw poorly, miss bases and plunk runners at the last second to draw a call.
So you are rewarding the runner who failed to slide or get out of the way. Where do you expect the fielder to throw the ball when the runner is standing 10 feet away in a direct line between him and first base?
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 29, 2006, 12:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 4,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB
So you are rewarding the runner who failed to slide or get out of the way. Where do you expect the fielder to throw the ball when the runner is standing 10 feet away in a direct line between him and first base?
I love those who tell me what I do by jumping to conclusions.

As I said quite clearly, i make this call on a case by case basis. Nothing is automatic on this call...for me. Feel free to utilize a "one size fits all" philosophy on this. I choose not to.

And, yes, I realize I am in the minority on this. Never the less, I will continue to use judgement on this play.
__________________
GB
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 29, 2006, 12:43pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lakeside, California
Posts: 6,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB
So you are rewarding the runner who failed to slide or get out of the way. Where do you expect the fielder to throw the ball when the runner is standing 10 feet away in a direct line between him and first base?
Nowhere in rule 8-4-2 does it say that the runner:

a) must slide

or

b) must get out of the way

Where do I expect the fielder to throw the ball? How about coming across the base to take the throw on the inside of the diamond or touching the base and backing away from the base on the outside of the diamond? These are the mechanics which are taught to second basemen.
__________________
Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 29, 2006, 04:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,191
My opinion -- the FPSR is primarily a safety rule -- protect the middle infielder, not only when there is contact, but when there might be contact. Calling the runer out for being hit by the throw does not protect the middle infielder (that is, there's nothing to protect him from). So, don't call the second out.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 30, 2006, 11:51pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
Nowhere in rule 8-4-2 does it say that the runner:

a) must slide

or

b) must get out of the way

Where do I expect the fielder to throw the ball? How about coming across the base to take the throw on the inside of the diamond or touching the base and backing away from the base on the outside of the diamond? These are the mechanics which are taught to second basemen.
Check out F. "As a runner or retired runner, fails to execute a legal slide, or does not attempt to avoid the fielder or the play on a force play at any base." The runner has to either slide or get out of the way. Running in a direct line between the bases is not getting out of the way.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 31, 2006, 12:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB
Check out F. "As a runner or retired runner, fails to execute a legal slide, or does not attempt to avoid the fielder or the play on a force play at any base." The runner has to either slide or get out of the way. Running in a direct line between the bases is not getting out of the way.
Key language: "or the play on a force play" What does "play on a force play" mean? A fair reading could be the act of the fielder with the ball touching the bag on a force play. It certainly does not say "the runner must, at all costs, avoid the relay throw coming from second base. If the runner fails to do so, the batter runner shall be declared out." The wizards at NFHS, NCAA and the OBR committee could all put this in there; they didn't.

I still ain't calling this interference, even with a FPSR. This could turn into Keystone Kops in a hurry. My main concern is that if I Godzilla this and get the second out, defenses will start throwing at runners who are close to second, especially when there is a potential whacker at first. What's easier, turning the 6-4-3 the way Tinker to Evers to Chance did it, or plunking happless R1 who is ten feet from second? The leagues I work aren't athletic enough to turn lots of double plays, but they are competitive enough to find a way to get one if I open the door for them.

Strikes and outs!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 31, 2006, 12:53am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lakeside, California
Posts: 6,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB
Check out F. "As a runner or retired runner, fails to execute a legal slide, or does not attempt to avoid the fielder or the play on a force play at any base." The runner has to either slide or get out of the way. Running in a direct line between the bases is not getting out of the way.
The way I see it, and I'm not alone in this, is that the rules state that runners are never required to slide (8-4-2{b} NOTE). This takes care of the first part. He only has to execute a legal slide when he is at risk of contacting the fielder, not when he is 10 feet away.

He does have to avoid the fielder (which he is not violating, as he was hit with a thrown ball 6 to 10 feet from the base). So he avoided the fielder.

He also must not interfere with the play on a force at any base (which he is not violating, because the play on the force was already successful). Since he was retired on the force play, he did not interfere with that play.

8-4-2(f) has everything to do with the play at the base itself, not any following play, such as a relay to first to complete a double play.

The runner was plunked by a ball on a play on which the fielder could have done a much better job of turning the double play. Unless the runner intentionally allowed the ball to hit him, or made a move to get hit by the ball in some way, I don't have interference.
__________________
Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 31, 2006, 01:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
The way I see it, and I'm not alone in this, is that the rules state that runners are never required to slide (8-4-2{b} NOTE). This takes care of the first part. He only has to execute a legal slide when he is at risk of contacting the fielder, not when he is 10 feet away.
If the runner chooses not to slide then he must attempt to avoid the play. Running in a direct line between the bases is not avoiding the play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
He also must not interfere with the play on a force at any base (which he is not violating, because the play on the force was already successful). Since he was retired on the force play, he did not interfere with that play.
So by your logic if F6 steps to the side of second base and is taken out by R1's slide it is not interference. R1 was retired on the force play, it was already sucessful therefore R1 cannot interfere with the play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
8-4-2(f) has everything to do with the play at the base itself, not any following play, such as a relay to first to complete a double play.
8-4-2F is the force play slide rule. The FPSR is all about the throw to first base on the double play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
The runner was plunked by a ball on a play on which the fielder could have done a much better job of turning the double play. Unless the runner intentionally allowed the ball to hit him, or made a move to get hit by the ball in some way, I don't have interference.
So if the runner is standing directly between the fielder and first base, where do you expect the fielder to throw the ball? R1 should have been either on the ground (sliding) so the fielder can throw over him or veering off to the side (getting out of the way) so the fielder has clear lane to throw the ball.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 31, 2006, 01:26am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lakeside, California
Posts: 6,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB
If the runner chooses not to slide then he must attempt to avoid the play. Running in a direct line between the bases is not avoiding the play.
The play already happened. The throw to first is not the play being referred to.


Quote:
So by your logic if F6 steps to the side of second base and is taken out by R1's slide it is not interference. R1 was retired on the force play, it was already sucessful therefore R1 cannot interfere with the play.
No, that would be interference, because F6 still has the ball, and the runner did not legally slide directly into the base. You are comparing apples to pommegranites here.

Quote:
8-4-2F is the force play slide rule. The FPSR is all about the throw to first base on the double play.
No, the FPSR is all about not crashing the pivot man on a double play. It has nothing to do with once the ball is thrown. If the runner comes in standing up and forces the pivot man to make an errant throw, then he has violated the FPSR.

Quote:
So if the runner is standing directly between the fielder and first base, where do you expect the fielder to throw the ball? R1 should have been either on the ground (sliding) so the fielder can throw over him or veering off to the side (getting out of the way) so the fielder has clear lane to throw the ball.
How do you expect a runner who is trying to reach the base safely, and is within 6 to 10 feet from the base to "veer off" or slide? If he slides, he comes up short. What if the pivot man drops the ball, and the runner slid in anticipation of the throw and ends up 3 feet short of the base?

Like I said before, the fielders turning the DP are trained to either come across the base to make their throws, or to touch the base and do a push-off step backward (2nd baseman only) to throw. It only takes a slight adjustment to avoid throwing the ball into the baserunner, and it is the fielders job to do this, not the runners.
__________________
Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 29, 2006, 05:39pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB
So you are rewarding the runner who failed to slide or get out of the way. Where do you expect the fielder to throw the ball when the runner is standing 10 feet away in a direct line between him and first base?
If you want to call this interference, go right ahead. I know I personally do not care what you do. I know I am with Garth and many others here. I am not calling interference based on how far they have come to second. The fielder better figure out a way to throw the ball to first then what was described.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 30, 2006, 03:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 67
the runner is expected to "slide or avoid" to miss the contact, not a bad throw. The onus is definitely on the defense here. The only way that runner can interfere is intentionally.
__________________
Hey blue, he's balking again!

Hey coach, i still haven't put the ball in play.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thrown ball into dead ball area 0balls2strikes Softball 7 Wed Aug 10, 2005 08:10pm
ODB Hit by Thrown Ball tzme415 Softball 9 Fri Jul 08, 2005 05:06pm
Runner coliding with Catcher While Fielding a Thrown Ball UmpJordan Baseball 14 Tue Sep 21, 2004 02:06pm
Media Hit by thrown ball WindyCityBlue Baseball 13 Mon May 31, 2004 03:34am
Ball thrown in dugout question. dsimp8 Softball 10 Thu Sep 04, 2003 04:52pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:59am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1