Foul tip? Direct?

[NIump50]

Hey coach,

Was the 20' in the air and in fair territory just an attempt at confusion?
Sit. A whether fair or foul makes no difference.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

So, to see if this makes any sense, I'm going to pose two hypothetical situations and ask you for your ruling in each. (If you are certain you know the answers, please refrain from responding for awhile.)

In both situations, there is 1 out, an R1 and an R2, and the count is 2 balls, 1 strike on the batter.

Both runners are stealing on the pitch.

In both situations, the catcher eventually catches the ball, which is still "in flight" , while both he and the ball are completely in fair territory.

In both situations, the batter takes a mighty swing and barely nicks the ball.

In both situations, having caught the ball, the catcher fires it to F3, who steps on 1B as the R1 and R2 reach their advance bases.

In situation A, the ball tipped the catcher's glove, hit his helmet and bounced 20' in the air (over fair territory).

In situation B, it didn't tip his glove and everything else is the same.

What's your call?

JM

I don't know why situation B isn't a caught fly ball. Batted ball hit person of a fielder in foul territory and was caught before hitting the ground.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Lil Leaguer,

Once the ball hit the catcher's mask without first hitting the glove or hand, it is a dead ball immediately.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Rule 2.00 FOUL BALL:

A foul ball is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or betwen home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

Rule 2.00 FOUL TIP:

A foul tip is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

[jxt127]

And there's the lucky batter I had last year in the playoffs. The pitch is behind him and nicks the bat to deflect straight into the catchers mitt!

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Rule 2.00 FOUL TIP:

A foul tip is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

Thanks. I can't explain how I missed that clear language in "both" rule sets.

[UmpJM]

Thanks to all who responded. I've been away from my computer since this morning.

A couple of things.

As Steve pointed out in his first post on this thread, "Situation A" is definitely a "foul tip". Since the ball remains live, the runners keep their advance bases.
And strike two is added to the batter's count.

NIump50,

the bit about the ball going over fair territory was purely "distracting" information. It has no bearing on the call. I just wanted to make the point that once the batted ball hit the catcher over foul territory, there is no way it could become fair. I also set up the sitch so that if someone did think it became fair, they might think an IFF call was appropriate. Didn't appear that anyone went down that path.

The reason I included "Situation B" is because I am confused about the correct answer. I am positive it is NOT a "foul tip", but I still can't decide if it is properly ruled a foul, dead ball (as SD Steve suggests) or whether it is a legally "caught" batted foul fly, with the ball in play and the runners in jeopardy until they retouch.

Now Steve posted the text of the relevant rules and made a good case for treating my "Situation B" as a dead ball, foul. He may very well be correct.

The reason I am not sure is that the ball DIDN'T go "...sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands...". It went sharp and direct to (let's say, the top) of the catcher's helmet. The batter's "nick" of the ball changed the path of the ball away from the area of the catcher's hands. So it didn't meet the "sharp and direct" criteria necessary to be covered by the Foul Tip rule. Or did it? Am I thinking about this the wrong way?

What say you?

JM

[Carbide Keyman]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Thanks to all who responded. I've been away from my computer since this morning.

A couple of things.

As Steve pointed out in his first post on this thread, "Situation A" is definitely a "foul tip". Since the ball remains live, the runners keep their advance bases.
And strike two is added to the batter's count.

NIump50,

the bit about the ball going over fair territory was purely "distracting" information. It has no bearing on the call. I just wanted to make the point that once the batted ball hit the catcher over foul territory, there is no way it could become fair. I also set up the sitch so that if someone did think it became fair, they might think an IFF call was appropriate. Didn't appear that anyone went down that path.

The reason I included "Situation B" is because I am confused about the correct answer. I am positive it is NOT a "foul tip", but I still can't decide if it is properly ruled a foul, dead ball (as SD Steve suggests) or whether it is a legally "caught" batted foul fly, with the ball in play and the runners in jeopardy until they retouch.

Now Steve posted the text of the relevant rules and made a good case for treating my "Situation B" as a dead ball, foul. He may very well be correct.

The reason I am not sure is that the ball DIDN'T go "...sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands...". It went sharp and direct to (let's say, the top) of the catcher's helmet. The batter's "nick" of the ball changed the path of the ball away from the area of the catcher's hands. So it didn't meet the "sharp and direct" criteria necessary to be covered by the Foul Tip rule. Or did it? Am I thinking about this the wrong way?

What say you?

JM

If it does not touch the catcher's hand(s), it is a foul ball.



Doug

[UmpJM]

Doug,

Immediately dead or (in the sitch posed) caught for an out?

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

JM,

As I said, once it touches anything of the catchers other than his hand or glove, it is dead immediately. Don't you trust me? I wouldn't steer ya wrong. This is Umpiring 101 stuff. It is still too sharp and direct to be a regular catchable foul fly ball. It has to have an arc, which is judgement on the part of the umpire, but if fouled straight back into the catcher's helmet, it is a dead soldier.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Rule 2.00 FOUL BALL:

A foul ball is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or betwen home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

Rule 2.00 FOUL TIP:

A foul tip is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

A foul ball is not the same as a fly ball over foul territory. I think that is where your confusion lies, JM. A foul ball is dead. It cannot be caught for an out. A fly ball over foul ground can be caught for an out.

[Carbide Keyman]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Doug,

Immediately dead or (in the sitch posed) caught for an out?

JM

As SDSteve said, immediately dead.




Doug

[UmpJM]

Steve (and Doug),

Thank you for indulging me while I beat this particular horse well past the point of death.

I found the following in JEA (no excuses for not finding it earlier):

"...The 1950 revision explained that it was not considered a foul tip if the ball rebounded off any of the catcher's equipment and was then secured. If it hit his glove or hand first, rebounded, and was subsequently secured, it was considered a legal catch and a foul tip rather than a foul ball. ...

,

which certainly (at least in my mind) supports your assertion that my "Situation B" is properly ruled a "dead ball, foul".

I will now return to the dugout and attempt to refrain from further interrupting the progress of the game.

JM