Ball in Dugout

[wmandino]

Last night at during an 11-12 yr old Dixie Youth Baseball game, man on first base. B1 hit a groundball to the shortstop who fielded the ball and touched 2nd base to force R1 out he than threw the ball to first for the double play but instead it went in the dugout. The umpire called dead ball and gave B1 second base. Between innings he told me that had the shortstop tossed the ball to second baseman to turn the double play and he (2ndbaseman) threw it in the dugout the runner is entitled 2 bases because two fielders touched the ball. i.e. B1 would get first and second because the shortstop and second touched it. None of this made sense to me.

Could anyone try to explain what he might have been talking about.

Thanks.

[mcrowder]

There IS a difference between the first play by an infielder and subsequent plays... but in THIS sitch (assuming BR had not yet reached first base by the time the ball was THROWN (not the time it went into DBT)), either award would be 2nd base. 2nd base IS two bases from where BR was when the ball was thrown (the award when the play is not the first by an infielder), and it is also two bases from where BR was at the time of pitch (the award when the play IS the first by an infielder).

[RPatrino]

Wmandino, your partner was trying to help you. I think he confused you more than help you. Base awards are pretty simple, rule wise, for thrown balls that go out of play.

If the throw is the first play from the infield, the award is 2 bases from the time of the pitch. So, on a grounder to F5 that gets thrown into DBT (dead ball territory), the BR would be awarded 2b, two bases from the time of the pitch (BR was at the plate).

If the throw is the SECOND play in the infield, or a throw from the outfield, then the award is 2 bases from the time of the throw.

In your situation, F6 touch of second for the force is play #1, the award would be from the time of the throw. The BR had not touched 1b, so the award put the BR on 2b.

You got the call right, but your partner blew the explaination.

Bob P.

[mrumpire11]

also,

"If all runners, including the batter runner have advanced at least one base when an infielder makes a wild throw on the first play after a pitch, the award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made."

[Thatballzlow]

Originally Posted by wmandino

Last night at during an 11-12 yr old Dixie Youth Baseball game, man on first base. B1 hit a groundball to the shortstop who fielded the ball and touched 2nd base to force R1 out he than threw the ball to first for the double play but instead it went in the dugout. The umpire called dead ball and gave B1 second base. Between innings he told me that had the shortstop tossed the ball to second baseman to turn the double play and he (2ndbaseman) threw it in the dugout the runner is entitled 2 bases because two fielders touched the ball. i.e. B1 would get first and second because the shortstop and second touched it. None of this made sense to me.

Could anyone try to explain what he might have been talking about.

Thanks.

For what it's worth...your partner, God love him, was full of dookie on this one. When that guy stepped on the bag, that was the first play by an infielder...I don't care if the guy handed the ball to his mother...tell your partner that we love him, but quit giving you advice if he doesn't understand the rules...damn...I'm sorry, that was harsh...but I'm just tired of people pulling dookie out of their tushies...wow...I'm slipping...lol

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Thatballzlow

...but I'm just tired of people pulling dookie out of their tushies...wow...I'm slipping...lol

It makes me want to make pee-pee in my Huggies!

[wmandino]

Thanks for the insight on the rule. It makes all the sense in the world now. By the way the umpire was my father-in-law!!!!!

O' yea, why when an outfielder fields a ball and throws it in DBA that the runner in entitled two bases?

[mcrowder]

Same rule - two bases from the time of throw, just like we described earlier for anything other than the first play being made from an infielder.

[wmandino]

why wouldn't the outfielders throw be considered the 1st throw?

[Blue37]

wmandino,

Email me. I do some Dixie.

[email protected]

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by wmandino

why wouldn't the outfielders throw be considered the 1st throw?

Because the rule specifically states "first play by an infielder."


Tim.

[wmandino]

Yea I got that, I thought maybe one of you could give your insight on why the rule does not apply to outfielders. You can never learn to much.

[BigUmp56]

This is an excerpt from the JEA.


Historical Notes

The two base award for a thrown ball which goes out of play first appeared in 1910. The rule was revised in 1914 to cover balls which remained in the meshes of the protective screen protecting the spectators. For practical purposes, new wording was added in 1951 which defined the slanted part of the screen above the break. This was the portion of the protective screen which angled off of the perpendicular screen behind home plate and protected spectators from foul balls and also returned foul balls to the playing field. The common point where the two screens met was known as the "break." Thrown balls which strike "above the break" are considered "out of play." In 1931, a distinction was made on balls thrown by infielders and outfielders.


The '31 rule stated: "When the throw is made by an infielder, the umpire in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runner or runners at the time the ball was pitched; when the throw is made by an outfielder, the award shall be governed by the position of the runner or runners at the time the throw was made. The rule was revised in 1940 and introduced the concept of the first throw by an infielder. Anytime an errant first throw by an infielder went out of play, the two base award was made from the position of the runners at the time of the pitch. The 1950 rules provided an amendment which revised this interpretation when a play intervened. If a play intervened between the infielder's first throw and any subsequent throw, the award would be based on the runner/s position at the time of the throw which went out of play. In 1962, the wording was changed again. This time the rule specified that when the wild throw was the first play by an infielder, the award was based on the position of the runners at the time of the pitch. Consequently, any legitimate effort to retire a runner constituted a play and changed the guideline for awarding bases. In effect, a first throw may not necessarily be the first play. (see Appendix 16 defining Plays) Anytime an errant throw from an outfielder went out of play, the award was always made from the position of the runners at the time of the throw. This interpretation applies today.


The Note/A.R. explaining the impossibility of awarding all runners two bases in certain circumstances appeared in the 1954 rule book. The Approved Ruling which explains the proper award when all runners, including the batter-runner have advanced at least one base was added in 1962. The explanatory notes and play defining when a throw is considered to have been made were added in 1976.




Tim.

[mcrowder]

It does. 2 bases from the time of the throw.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by wmandino

Yea I got that, I thought maybe one of you could give your insight on why the rule does not apply to outfielders. You can never learn to much.

If the rule were the same for an outfielder as an infielder ie 2 bases from TOP. Here's what would happen:
Base hit ove F8s head, F8 misplays it off the fence, he finally catches up with the ball as BR is cruising into third, F8 then alertly throws the ball over F5s head and into DBT. BR would then have to retreat to second since he only gets 2 bases from TOP. You would never again see a triple or an inside the parker. That's why the rule states 2 bases from TOT from the outfield.