Interference or Not???

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by dacodee

I'm working the plate... Man on 1st and 2nd, with two out. My partner is in the C position. Ground ball to the right of shortstop. Runner from second trys to avoid the fielder. As soon as the runner passes him, the shortstop runs into the back of the runner as he's charging the ball. Both, partner and myself have no call. Defensive coach goes crazy and whips out the rule book.

Question 1: Do you have interference on the runner and call the batter out?

Question 2: Some umps don't ever want coach to bring rule book on the field. Do you toss him or let him read what the book says.

As a side note, defensive team was losing 13-1 in the bottom of the 4th. Game was called after 5 and a half.

DAC

dacodee,

I'm curious about two things regarding the situation you described:

1. Did you and your partner correct your erroneous "non-call"?

2. Did you or your partner eject the coach who brought the rulebook onto the field?

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Since you seem to be actually bothering to learn the rules, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. It (generally speaking) really pisses off umpires to see a coach bring a rulebook onto the field. For some reason, even though you're probably just trying to be helpful, they interpret this as if you're trying to "show them up" by calling their competence into question - in front of God and everybody. It's kind of considered "poor etiquette".

JM:

1) It really pisses off umpires for a good reason which is:

2) Coaches are not trying to be helpful, they are in fact acting like the rats they are.

3) The reason umpires interpret this as trying to show them up is because that is exactly what the coach is doing. This is not some wild notion umpires have. Bringing out a rule book is indeed calling their competence into question.

4) It is not only considered "poor etiquette," it is extremely poor etiquette.

But thank you for explaining it from a totally biased coach's standpoint. Please let the umpires do this in the future. It is very easy to sit in the dugout and flaunt your knowledge of the rules, and a very different case to actually have to apply these rules in stressful situations. That requires an umpire.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

JM:

...

But thank you for explaining it from a totally biased coach's standpoint. Please let the umpires do this in the future. It is very easy to sit in the dugout and flaunt your knowledge of the rules, and a very different case to actually have to apply these rules in stressful situations. That requires an umpire.

S.D. Steve,

Ummm, I could be mistaken, but I believe that Tim (BigUmp56) asked me to explain this from a coach's perspective (see post #8 on this thread). I was merely trying to comply with the umpire's instruction.

While I would certainly concur that a coach should NOT bring his rulebook onto the field (which I believe I said in my earlier post), it may not be the naive coach's intent to "show up the umpire" were he to do so.

Take Xtopher_66's hypothetical posed in his question to Tim where an umpire has made a gross rule misapplication as an example (I know, would probably never happen in the the "real world"). He asks if it would be OK to show the umpire the rule in the rulebook. It doesn't sound to me like his intent is to "show up" the umpire; rather, it seems to me he is trying to "help" the umpire arrive at the correct ruling.

Tim said it would be OK to "ask" the umpire if they could look it up together. I implicitly concurred with him and then went on to say that it would be a rare occasion when it would even be useful to look in the rulebook and suggested what I believe to be a proper procedure for appealing to an umpire to correct his call should the coach believe the umpire misapplied the rules in making his initial call.

I also fully concur that it is an order of magnitude more difficult to actually apply the rules while umpiring a game than it is to (slightly different analogy) sit in front of a computer, with all kinds of reference materials handy, and discuss how those rules might be properly applied in an abstract, theoretical way.

However, if you want to talk about stressful, try convincing an umpire that he has just made an incorrect call in a game when:

1. He can eject you, pretty much for any reason he feels appropriate.

2. His version of what actually happened is the only one that matters.

3. He is already predisposed to believe his knowledge of the rules is vastly superior to your own (usually, but not always, correctly so).

4. In many cases, he is predisposed to believe that you have the moral character and integrity of a rodent.

It's not only stressful, it's quite difficult to accomplish.

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

I guess my chief complaint with your post was the phrase, "For some reason...," as if the very thought that this could in any way be considered offensive was out of the question. "Gee, for some unknown reason, these umpires, can't tell ya why, but they somehow don't like it when you bring a rule book out on the field. Go figure." That is how it sounded to me. I was just pointing out that there is a really good reason, that should be perfectly obvious to even the most naive rookie coach.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

However, if you want to talk about stressful, try convincing an umpire that he has just made an incorrect call in a game.
[...]
It's not only stressful, it's quite difficult to accomplish.

JM

Coach, do you keep a journal? I'd love to know your batting average on rules arguments won on the field and protests upheld.

[UmpJM]

LilLeaguer,

I do not keep a journal of my games (although at times I wish I had).

I am in my 12th year of coaching baseball.

In that time, I have formally "protested" two calls - in both cases, my protest was upheld. (I should mention that some leagues I coach in explicitly preclude protests.)

Now, I make it a point to never "argue" with an umpire - well, at least not during a game in which I am coaching.

However, I am not the least bit hesitant to appeal to an umpire to correct his call if I believe he did not properly apply the rules in making his call. I would guess my "success rate" is probably in the neighborhood of 10-15%. I am also pretty "selective" about what calls I even bother to appeal.

I also never "show displeasure" with the umpire's ball/strike calls during the game.

I have never been ejected from a game (yet ).

JM

[Carbide Keyman]

Can you say "condescending" ? I think you can.



Doug

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Carbide Keyman

Can you say "condescending" ? I think you can.



Doug

Doug,

HUH???

What did I say that was condescending? It certainly wasn't my intent to be so.

I plead not guilty.

JM

[BigUmp56]

I didn't see anything condescending in your posts. They certainly were no less condescending than the posts made by us umpires here.



Tim.

[Carbide Keyman]

The tenor of all of your posts in this thread, with all the boldface "keywords" struck me as extremely dismissive and condescending of umpires.

Your mileage may vary.




Doug

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by Carbide Keyman

The tenor of all of your posts in this thread, with all the boldface "keywords" struck me as extremely dismissive and condescending of umpires.

Your mileage may vary.

Doug

Do you keep a game journal? Do you have a lot of ejections?

[Carbide Keyman]

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer

Do you keep a game journal? Do you have a lot of ejections?

Yes, I do keep a journal. No, I do not have alot of ejections, but that depends on your definition of "alot" ? Seriously, just two EJ's in the last 215 games I've umpired.

Then again, my hearing's not what it use to be.



Doug

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by Carbide Keyman

Yes, I do keep a journal. No, I do not have alot of ejections, but that depends on your definition of "alot" ? Seriously, just two EJ's in the last 215 games I've umpired.

Then again, my hearing's not what it use to be.

Doug

No, 2 ejections does not sound like a lot.

You may have had the equivalent of rabbit ears on your reading glasses. I don't know why CoachJM used bold words, but I didn't read any condescension towards umpires in his post.

[UmpJM]

LilLeaguer,

FWIW, when I first read your "follow-up" query to Doug, I was ROTFLMAO - just struck me as kind of funny.

However, I really wasn't looking to pick a fight with him (nor am I now), or anyone else for that matter, so I just left it alone.

My use of boldface type in other posts on this thread was merely an (apparently spectacularly unsuccessful) attempt to emphasize certain aspects of my comments, which I believed and intended to be in full agreement with the umpires' advice to the coach to not bring a rulebook onto the field.

I honestly couldn't figure out what Doug found to be condescending in tone, or why S.D. Steve had such a negative reaction to my comments.

Having reread my posts, I would say that the only thing that I wrote that could be fairly considered even mildly condescending was my post addressed to Xtopher_66 - and my intent was not be mean-spirited in any way, but mildly humorous (again, apparently without success).

I did have a point I was trying to make with the umpires. Having been in Xtopher_66's shoes in the past, I can assure you that it is not necessarily a coach's intent to show disrespect to the umpire by bringing a rulebook onto the field.

When I first realized that "rulebook" was not a metaphor and that it might actually be a good idea for me to learn the (real) rules of the game I was theoretically teaching to children, it did not occur to me that bringing a rulebook onto the field would be considered offensive to an umpire. Really.

Once a helpful umpire explained it to me, it made perfect sense. So, I would encourage you as umpires, especially if you do "lower level" games, to not automatically eject a coach for bringing out a rulebook - at least not if he is otherwise behaving as a gentleman. Simply tell him to put it away and inform him that really isn't done. Now if he's acting like a jerk or does it again, by all means toss him. Some people can't learn to modify their behavior unless there are consequences.

JMO.

JM

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

LilLeaguer,

I did have a point I was trying to make with the umpires. Having been in Xtopher_66's shoes in the past, I can assure you that it is not necessarily a coach's intent to show disrespect to the umpire by bringing a rulebook onto the field.

JM

Agreed. I have seen an umpire "keep the coach in the game" without losing his dignity or the respect of anybody on the field. I, at least, see plenty of ballgames where coaches are not at all familiar with the conventions of baseball.