Hockey Style masks or Traditional??

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"The traditional mask, because of how it is worn, transfers the impact to the forehead and more so the chin (jaw)."

This is not a true statement if you wear your traditional mask correctly.

Tim,

I'm afraid your reputation does nothing for you on this one. I have enough Mechanical Engineering experience to confidently say, you are DEAD WRONG.

Think about it; A mask has two pads, where the contact points are the Forehead and Jaw, for a properly fitted and worn mask. Now your going to actually state, in public, with a straight face, that the energy from a ball hitting a mask is not going to be transfered to the ONLY two contact points, the Forehead and Jaw ?

Where is it going to be transfered to, your cup ?

Here is the crux of the debate;

Old guys = Mask

Young guys = Helmet

The young guys are going to win this one, because the old guys are going to die before the young guys. I am 47, and I have been wearing a mask since I was 44 (still a young guy).

But keep fighting for your right to wear a mask. Just make sure your argument is valid. I would even accept, "I refuse to try it, think about it, or watch someone wearing one." At least it would be sincere.

[Tim C]

I don't think I said anywhere in my post that I was against wearing the HSM.

That's old news.

I am simply saying that mask manufacturers believe that a mask should work much like an F1 race car and disapate the energy of the strike by having the mask spin or fly off your face.

Even the MLB guy (sorry Nick I forget which one) that was injured last year admitted freely that he had been wearing his mask "too tight."

I have passed the emotional side of iffin' a guy wears a HSM or traditional mask . . . I see you haven't.

Regards,

[Rich]

Originally Posted by nickrego

Tim,

I'm afraid your reputation does nothing for you on this one. I have enough Mechanical Engineering experience to confidently say, you are DEAD WRONG.

Think about it; A mask has two pads, where the contact points are the Forehead and Jaw, for a properly fitted and worn mask. Now your going to actually state, in public, with a straight face, that the energy from a ball hitting a mask is not going to be transfered to the ONLY two contact points, the Forehead and Jaw ?

Where is it going to be transfered to, your cup ?

Here is the crux of the debate;

Old guys = Mask

Young guys = Helmet

The young guys are going to win this one, because the old guys are going to die before the young guys. I am 47, and I have been wearing a mask since I was 44 (still a young guy).

But keep fighting for your right to wear a mask. Just make sure your argument is valid. I would even accept, "I refuse to try it, think about it, or watch someone wearing one." At least it would be sincere.

The thing you aren't hearing from Tim is that a mask, WORN PROPERLY, will cause the same amount of pain and discomfort when hit as the HSM. None. A mask is designed to be worn loose and, when hit, it's supposed to spin up and off the face.

If you like the HSM, fine, but don't act like it's more dangerous to choose the mask, cause it isn't.

BTW, I wear a HSM.......cause I think the VISION is better -- for no other reason.

[GrizzlyUmp14]

I have always worn the hockey-style mask. I had a foul ball hit my shoulder pad and bounced toward my head. Luckily, it deflected off part of my helmet and just barely hit my face. If I was wearing a traditional mask, I'm sure it would have been a lot worse. I love the increased protection and I feel that I have excellent vision (which is really important!)

[greymule]

I guess I wore the mask correctly, because mine often spun, sometimes completely off, when a pitch hit it right, and I can't remember ever really getting my bell rung (except once from a thrown bat). This year I decided to get the All-Star UMP2000 helmet. On the plus side: better vision; protection on the back, top, and sides—not a trivial benefit; quite comfortable; definitely less jolt. The minuses: harder to remove (though with the vision it provides, you can leave it on); harder to get on, as you have to see that the straps are straight, and then you have to position the back plate; and the worst thing about it, a very loud rattle in the ears if the pitch hits the cage hard. We haven't had any hot days yet here in NJ, so I can't comment on how it will feel in August.

Guy around here found his grandfather's mask from the 1930s. No way did that one get spun. It felt as if it must have weighed 6 or 8 pounds.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by greymule

...I can't remember ever really getting my bell rung (except once from a thrown bat).

Were you umpiring Delmon Young at the time?

[nickrego]

A Mask is not going to spin off if you take a direct hit, say from an untouched fastball. Your Forehead and Jaw are going to take all the energy, and you are going to feel it.

Yes, if a ball hits you from an angle, like a foul ball, or a ball that grazes off the catcher, your mask will spin off, and take some of the energy with it. But who wants a rug burn, and a bent nose from that ?

Look, wear what you will, I don't care. But just as if we were talking about a RULE, we need to get the facts correct, for those who have no experience with both pieces of equipment. There just is no comparison of the way the ball's energy is transfered between a Mask vs. Helmet. They are engineered differently.

If someone was stating inaccurate information about a chest protector, I was take the same stance. It is important that the information on this board is accurate, and informative. Just trying to do my part.

[bellsjc]

I have always used a mask. I have used the Plus Pos Zero Grav. for three years now. I love the fact that it is very light and the single bar gives me a pretty good field of view. For some reason this year, I have been getting killed behind the plate. I have been doing mostly Varsity ball so I can't blame the catchers. Almost all of my hits have been fouls. At my game this past Monday, I took a foul off my right forearm. I usually don't bruise real easily but this thing got ugly. I was showing it off to my partner last night and told him to take notice as to where I was setting up because I was getting killed this year. He reached into his trunk and pulled out the HSM he got this year. I showed him my zero grav. and he said he liked how light it was but would never go back to the mask. Well the game progressed and once again I took a beating. I got hit in the shoulder from a foul that bounced off the close back stop. Took two fouls off the mask, and the decisive blow was a ball in the dirt, that the catcher never touched. It bounced up and hit me on the right side of my jaw! If I had on a HSM I don't think it could have got me. Next year I will look for the best, lightest HSM on the market. If any of you can recommend one, please give a hollar. I don't care how much it costs I want the lightest one possible.

[JRutledge]

Nick,

I think you have waaaaayyyyy too much invested in this discussion. I have worn a mask and I have taken foul balls off the mask and the mask spun around and I hardly felt a thing. I am sure the type of mask pad and weight of the mask might have some effect on whether you "feel" the blow of the baseball. Who cares in the end? All this is anyway is an opinion. It means little to me or anyone else that uses any equipment. If you like the helmet so much than use the damn helmet. I will not use a helmet and I do not like the overall feel and look of the helmets. Now those are facts from my experience and that is why many umpires have not made the switch. How many times is this issue going to be debated as if we are talking about global warming?

Peace

[BlueLawyer]

A lot of emotion seems to be tied up in this debate.

I wear a mask. I wore a helmet once for one game and disliked it. It had better vision, but not much else appealed to me. It was harder to get on and off and I didn't see myself, but I know I looked like a bobblehead. I know that because my partners who wear them look like bobbleheads. My association seems to think that how an umpire looks is important, and I think the mask looks more professional. My opinion.

Yes, I am sacrificing safety for fashion. I have taken several shots in the mask over the years and so far, I seem to be ok.

Wear a mask if you want. Wear a helmet if you want. Can't we all just get along?

Strikes and outs!

[Tim C]

You should slow down and READ what is written it might help.

No where have I said a traditional mask is better (or worse) than the old HSM.

I simply correctly commented that a mask worn correctly works like an F1 racer at crash time and disapates energy.

IF your mask is "hanging loosely" as design dictates EVEN A DIRECT SHOT will place less energy transferred to your noggin'. The mask "may" spin or "pop off" but you seldom feel the energy of the ball.

Nick you have been the strongest proponet of the HSM for a few years. I understand that and give you the credit (I believe you once said you'd be surprised if the NFHS did not demand umpires wear the HSM eventually -- and I won't go against that as within five years ALL DEFNSIVE players will required to wear helmet with face masks).

The bigger issue is will we be able to buy traditional masks as the general market decreases in use.

Regards,

[PanamaCityBrian]

WOW, I think the defensive face masks are a stretch but I get the point....

But anyways I purchased an HSM Yesterday after reading all the post and some study on my own. It took alittle time to get used to it and get it adjusted correctly, but in the end I really like the view and nice cool breeze it afforded. Also I took an untouched fastball to the mask in the top of the first ( couldn't happen any other way ) and I felt nothing, I just heard the impact instead of felt it.

Thank you everyone for your input it really did help with the decision.

Panama City Brian

[LMan]

Originally Posted by bellsjc

Next year I will look for the best, lightest HSM on the market. If any of you can recommend one, please give a hollar. I don't care how much it costs I want the lightest one possible.

I'll be right pleased to take that Zero Grav off your hands when you get ready to sell, let me know

[greymule]

I just heard the impact instead of felt it.

Well put, but man, do you hear it (at least with the All-Star 2000). It's almost like a firecracker going off near your head.

My +POS SUL zero gravity was all dented up after one season. The black resin mask they sold a few years ago is still mint after many games. I wonder why they discontinued that item.

[SAump]

HSM Facts:
1) More expensive, 2) More heat, 3) Less professional, 4) Less padding, 5) Less comfort, 7) Less buying INFO, 8) Harder to size, 9) Harder to take on/off, 10) Harder to handle or store in gym bag, 11) Safety record (NIL), 12) Must cut hair or wear silly stocking cap and 13) Must have small head to fit right.

Safety:
1) Catcher NO longer tosses it or trips over it because they no longer take it off durring the course of a PLAY.
2) More deflection,the impact is significantly reduced. However, the UMPIRE standing behind the catcher is now more likely to take the DING on the unprotected ARM. Ouch.

Challenge:
1) Name one umpire or catcher whose carreer ended from an injury caused by the impact of a foul ball to the mask. Then prove that this injury would have been prevented as a result of wearing a HSM over the traditional mask.
2) Name and discuss any fact or safety issue that may prove added value of wearing a HSM.