Umpire Call Changed

[BigUmp56]

Sorry, Rich. You should know that this is not the proper way to discuss a call. If a coach has a problem with a call he needs to go to the umpire who made the call, not his partner. The PU was out of line by not telling the coach it wasn't his call and that he needed to go discuss the call with the BU first.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Eaaaasy ...

Geez, is somebody not taking their medication?

If the BU didn't call for a conference then, yes, the PU was "out of line."

My gosh, were you sexually abused by your LL coach when you were 10-yrs-old or something? Get some help, man.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

No, he just naturally expects you to read what was actually said before responding.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

NO.

There was a coach driven conference - information was exchenged between the umpires - the call was changed - legit.

I'll be damned if I let a coach drive me to a conference. The PU had no business calling for a conference upon request by the coach. Only the BU should be asking to confer, and then only if he is requesting help. If the BU is so new that he doesn't know to ask for help, and allows the PU to overrule him, he has no business on a baseball diamond yet.

What the heck is a "coach driven conference?"

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Congratulations. You just tied for the most ignorant response ever made on this forum.

Quite the accomplishment......and not very funny at all btw.

Then I'll apologize.

I'll only mention that my response was provoked by what cannot be interpreted as anything other than a completely inappropriate shot at myself ... for no particular reason that I can discern from the thread other than this individual's obvious disdain for me. The coach bashing and personal bashing was completely unprovoked, on the other hand. You didn't find that the least bit inappropriate?

Can you tell me what I said that deserved the comment made?

Also - my comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No, he just naturally expects you to read what was actually said before responding.

Really? You thought this thread developed in a way where it was obvious as to how the conference was initiated between the two umpires?

I think not.

It has since been made clear, however; but not at the time I made my initial input.

Oh - I read what he said; believe me.

Sounds like he harbors a lot of pent up anger, if you ask me.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Little Papas

Thanks,
The BU did not ask for help the HU was approached by the team's coach to appeal the call a conference of umpires was called and the call was changed.

This is what happened: A ball was hit to 3rd base, the 3rd baseman threw the ball and took the 1st baseman off the bag, and he then turned and tagged the runner as he passed him by the BU called him out on the tag.

If the call was changed because of lack of vision, I could understand the HU asking if he saw the play, but the BU said he saw the play clearly and the runner was out. What do you think? Should the call stand?

Dave:

Above you'll see the fourth post in this thread quoted. This made it pretty clear that the coach went to the PU and the PU inappropriately conferred with his partner without solocitation. I would imagine he was upset that you would even think about defending such an act by another umpire. I do agree with you that his comments were harsh and uncalled for, but is there a possibility there's a history between the two of you?


Tim.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Dave:

Above you'll see the fourth post in this thread quoted. This made it pretty clear that the coach went to the PU and the PU inappropriately conferred with his partner without solocitation. I would imagine he was upset that you would even think about defending such an act by another umpire. I do agree with you that his comments were harsh and uncalled for, but is there a possibility there's a history between the two of you?

Tim.

OK, fair enough. I missed that. No big deal. I would have thought he could have pointed that out to me in a more civil manner, much like you are doing.

Yet, my post began with this sentence: "If the BU requested a conference then, clearly, he was seeking information. Although it is the BU's responsibility to officially make the reversal - I've seen the other umpire make the reversal plenty of times. Although not technically proper, it is really rather academic if BOTH umpires agree with regards to the reversal."

It seems to me all he had to say was, "The BU didn't request a conference!"

My comment on the subject was rather general, anyways.

I'm not sure his personal and caustic remark was appropriate. It certainly didn't have anything to do with what we were discussing.

Is there "history" between us? Heck, I don't know. Apparently so. I don't keep track. But comments like that always seem to come from a select group of umpires who simply can't stand coaches. Why? - I don't know.

I thought the thread was progressing rather civilly until he made those remarks, wouldn't you agree?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[SanDiegoSteve]

David, I believe the only thing any of us are questioning is the sexual abuse comment you made. It did not add to the discussion, and quite frankly, we have come to expect a bit more from you.

[DG]

Coach, it's his call and he made a convincing call from what I saw. He had a better look at that play than I did, and I don't have anything to add. I'm not going to go down there and discuss it with him.

Then we have a postgame discussion. Make the call if you are sure. Come to me for help if you are not. This should be a very small percentage of the time, and BEFORE an out call is made. If you made an out call it should be because you are sure.

As a BU I have never asked for help after making an OUT call and the last time I asked for help on a call that was mine to make was on a play at 3B.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

David, I believe the only thing any of us are questioning is the sexual abuse comment you made. It did not add to the discussion, and quite frankly, we have come to expect a bit more from you.

Sometimes things don't come across in writing as they would if you were talking. I thought my comment was so completely overboard, with the smiley face at the end, that everybody would have known that I was just being a smartass.

C'mon - really - do you think for one second that I actually thought that he was sexually abused by a LL coach? Now, if I had said "Catholic priest" ... that could've been taken seriously!

Oops! Now I've gone and done it! Now I've offended all the Catholics.

I guess I should have finished that 12-step-program on political correctness. Dang!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

C'mon - really - do you think for one second that I actually thought that he was sexually abused by a LL coach?

I wouldn't put anything past a coach!

Oh, come on I was just kidding!!!

[David B]

Originally Posted by Little Papas

Thanks,
The BU did not ask for help the HU was approached by the team's coach to appeal the call a conference of umpires was called and the call was changed.

This is what happened: A ball was hit to 3rd base, the 3rd baseman threw the ball and took the 1st baseman off the bag, and he then turned and tagged the runner as he passed him by the BU called him out on the tag.

If the call was changed because of lack of vision, I could understand the HU asking if he saw the play, but the BU said he saw the play clearly and the runner was out. What do you think? Should the call stand?

The proper way to handle these type of situations is when the coach comes to the PU, he should be sent to the BU.

Then if the BU wants to seek further information he can ask for a conference with his PU.

Some are too quick to point out the haste the PU had and thats legit.

Sounds like the BU was out of position (big mistake) or a young umpire who didn't know what to do next.

But its so easy for spectators to jump to conclusions. Heard the exact same thing on the radio the other night as I returned from my playoff game.

Announcer: throw to first and the BU doesn't see the play and asks the PU to make the call (ugh)

Either bad mechanics or as usual the announcer didn't know what he was talking about.

WHat do they say, perception is sometimes reality...

Thanks
David

[Rich]

Originally Posted by David B

The proper way to handle these type of situations is when the coach comes to the PU, he should be sent to the BU.

Then if the BU wants to seek further information he can ask for a conference with his PU.

Some are too quick to point out the haste the PU had and thats legit.

Sounds like the BU was out of position (big mistake) or a young umpire who didn't know what to do next.

But its so easy for spectators to jump to conclusions. Heard the exact same thing on the radio the other night as I returned from my playoff game.

Announcer: throw to first and the BU doesn't see the play and asks the PU to make the call (ugh)

Either bad mechanics or as usual the announcer didn't know what he was talking about.

WHat do they say, perception is sometimes reality...

Thanks
David

Problem is, so many (including umpires) think it shows a willingness to work together rather than a deficiency in the other umpire.

I had a home run ball down the line. Plate umpire called it foul. Right at the time it crossed the fence I glanced down to make sure that the BR touched first base. The first base coach couldn't BELIEVE that I wasn't looking at the home run ball. We were working 2-man and the ball was NOT a slam dunk over the fence ball.

An umpire in A should never need to get help on a pulled foot, swipe tag, or any other squirrel. I wouldn't even entertain asking the plate umpire, even if asked in the nicest possible way.

[RPatrino]

David, how can you assume that the BU was out of position on this play? The original post states that the BR was called out on the tag, and that the U1 called it as such. Sounds to me that the coach was just trolling for a "second opinion", he set the hook and he caught something. That's bad!!!

This brings up the importance of a thorough pre-game meeting between partners. Make sure you both ( or all of you) know that no one will approach a partner without being asked by the partner.

I reiterate that in the pre-game plate meeting . " If you want to discuss a call, ask for time, when it is granted, go to the umpire who made the call. We want to get the call right." If they forget (they always do), and if they come to me on my partners call, I redirect them.

Something I also discuss in the partner pre-game is the concept of asking for help on plays where my partner might need it, before the coach even asks. This saves a lot of time and eliminates problems. It goes something like this, "partner, if you need my help, just ask, but do it before the coach says something".

Now, if my partner has a good look at the play, and he/she is convinced they got it right, how can I jump in and "over rule" that? Do other's have a different approach to handling this?

Bob P.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I had a home run ball down the line. Plate umpire called it foul. Right at the time it crossed the fence I glanced down to make sure that the BR touched first base. The first base coach couldn't BELIEVE that I wasn't looking at the home run ball. We were working 2-man and the ball was NOT a slam dunk over the fence ball.

Rich,

I'm having a hard time picturing this the way you have written it. You were the BU, correct? You went out on the ball down the line from A? The PU called it foul? How did you glance at 1st base if you went out? Why did PU make the call? I am really confused on this one.

An umpire in A should never need to get help on a pulled foot, swipe tag, or any other squirrel. I wouldn't even entertain asking the plate umpire, even if asked in the nicest possible way.

The original sitch had the BU in B or C (I believe). You are right. Nobody should ever need help on their calls at 1st base when working in A.

And after re-reading, it did not specify the position of the BU, but where else but in the middle could he be and still not see the tag properly?